Sorensen in Copenhagen

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[Toni Nebbard]

Hello,

I am trying to find out about Karl Vilhelm Sorensen who was born on 7th February 1890 in Copenhagen.  He was a ship's cook who moved to England around 1910.  He married in England and from his marriage record I know that his father was Vilhelm Rudolf Sorensen who was a schoolmaster (in danish - a laerer or skolemester?)

www.familysearch.org shows the marriage of a Vilhelm Rudolf Sorensen to Ellen Kirstine Pedersen in Sorbymagle, Soro, Denmark on 6th October 1883 which perhaps are his parents?

I would like to track down Karl's baptism in the church records and pick up him and his family on the census records.  I have seen the Denmark State Archives website, but it looks like I need to know the church or the address the family lived at to be able to find them. 

Can anyone help please.

Thank you very much for reading this.

Toni 

[Flemming A. Aasklint]

Hi

København
Helligkors
1889-1891
Opslag 22

[John Wrenholt]

from 1860 census:

Sorø, Slagelse, Boeslunde, Gryderup Skoledistrikt, Gryderup By, , Skolen, 161, FT-1860
Frederik Sørensen 56  Gift Husfader. Skolelærer  Faarevejle Sogn, Holbæk Amt
Gundil Høst Aaris 39  Gift Hans Kone  Korsør
Dorthea Kirstine Sørensen 18  Ugift Deres Barn  Boeslunde Sogn, Sorø Amt
Amalie Sørensen 12  Ugift Deres Barn  Boeslunde Sogn, Sorø Amt
Vilhelmine Sørensen 10  Ugift Deres Barn  Boeslunde Sogn, Sorø Amt
Carl Frederik Sørensen 4  Ugift Deres Barn  Boeslunde Sogn, Sorø Amt
Vilhelm Rudolph Sørensen 2  Ugift Deres Barn  Boeslunde Sogn, Sorø Amt
Martin Høst Aaris 34  Ugift Konens Broder  Korsør

from 1880 census:
København, Smørum, Værløse, Jonstrup By, , Jonstrup Seminarium, 305, FT-1880
Vilhelm Rudolf Sørensen 21  Ugift Seminarieelev  Boeslunde S., Sorø Amt

see also:
http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/index.php?option=com_sfup&controller=politregisterblade&task=viewRegisterblad&id=1877291&searchname=polit_simple

[Toni Nebbard]

Thank you so much Flemming and John.  How are you finding out this information so quickly?  Are there transcripts available for these records?

I am grateful for any information about this family.

Kind regards

Toni

[John Wrenholt]

The marriage record of Vilhelm Rudolf Sørensen (Dec 2, 1858) to Ellen Kirstine Pedersen (Apr 21, 1866) can be found in AO: 1859-1888 Sørbymagle, Vester Flakkebjerg, Sorø ops 215.

This appears to be Ellen Pedersen in the 1880 census:

Sorø, Vester Flakkebjerg, Sørbymagle, Sørbymagle, , 1 Gaard, nr. 72, 1, FT-1880
Ane Jørgensen født Petersen 59  Enke Husmoder og Gaardmands Enke  Sørbymagle
Jens Jørgensen 27  Ugift hendes Søn  Sørbymagle
Ellen Kirstine Pedersen 13  Ugift Pleiedatter  Kirke Stillinge
Maren Mortensen 30  Ugift Tjenestefolk  Sørbymagle
Karoline Frederikke Nielsen 15  Ugift Tjenestefolk  Kirke Stillinge Sogn, Sorø Amt
Jens Mortensen 26  Ugift Tjenestefolk  Sørbymagle
Christian Anton Olsen 16  Ugift Tjenestefolk  Kirkerup

[Homer Ficken]

Ellen Kirstine Pedersen was born 22 April 1866, parents Peder Pedersen and Ellen Jørgensen, 25
(A.O.  Sorø, Kirke Stillinge 1852-1882, opslag 117 #10)

Perhaps the widow Ane Jørgensen was a relative?

[John Wrenholt]

Frederik Gunnar Sørensen was born to Vilhelm and Ellen in 1884.  You can find his birth record at:
AO: 1859-1888 Sørbymagle, Vester Flakkebjerg, Sorø ops 29.

Here is Frederik Gunnar in the 1906 census:
København, Smørum, Værløse, Jonstrup, 3, , 7, FT-1906
Frederik Gunnar Sørensen 12/1 1884  Ugift Seminarie Elev 

It seems that sometime between Frederik's birth in 1884 and Karl Vilhelm's birth in 1890, Vilhelm Rudolf Sørensen was remarried to Christine Marie Andersen.  Her birth record can be found at:
AO: 1834-1862 Hørby, Dronninglund, Hjørring ops 119.

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi Toni,

When using the www.arkivalieronline.dk with church records and censuses, you can find instructions here how to use it: www.utilis.dk.

(Instructions in english.
Lynn Christiansen has created some great documents for arkivalieronline and AO Værktøjer.
This document about arkivalieronline describes everything you need to know, from creating an account to finding, downloading and viewing the images).

You can also find a number of censuses here: www.ddd.dda.dk (also in English) and a great site for finding place names (i.e. parishes etc.) is: www.krabsen.dk.

The www.politietsregisterblade.dk (in English too) is here: http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/index.php?lang=en (It was the pre-National register).

Lissa

[John Wrenholt]

Here's a family tree website that ties into Vilhelm Rudolf Sørensen:


http://bullemor.dk/hedevig_marie_nielsen/1914.htm

[John Wrenholt]

According to FamilySearch, Kristine (Christine) Marie Andersen's parents were Anders Knudsen and Maren Thomasdatter.   

This website traces the ownership of the family farm through the generations and gives several census listings for the family:

http://www.risgaardhuse.dk/vester%20hoerby.htm

[Jane C]

Skipping back to Vilhelm Rudolf Sørensen, the website John found says that in FT (Folketællinger/Census) 1880 he is at student at Jonstrup Teacher Training College (in Værløse).

You can see a transcription of that census at this link:
http://www.ddd.dda.dk/asp/vis_husstand.asp

1880 Danish Census  
København Amt, Smørum Herred, Værløse Sogn, Jonstrup By (Village/town), Jonstrup Seminarium (Jonstrup Teacher Training College), 305, FT-1880, C2776
......Many students listed together. Among them is........
Vilhelm Rudolf Sørensen age 21 ugift (single) Seminarieelev (teacher training student) born in Boeslunde Sogn (parish), Slagelse herred (district), Sorø Amt, Denmark

Find photos of Jonstrup on this website: http://www.malling-hansen.org/first-among-equals.html

As you can see from the 1860 census John posted, Vilhelm's father Frederik Sørensen was a teacher also. There are books with histories of Danish schools and teachers...not at my disposal though.

A translation tool: www.gramtrans.com

København Amt is not the city, it's the amt (which gets translated as county but it's more like a US state)  - think New York, New York.

[Jane C]

So far it seems Karl Vilhelm Sorensen is the son of the second marriage of his father Vilhelm Rudolf Sørensen to Kristine (Christine) Marie Andersen, daughter of Anders Knudsen and Maren Thomasdatter (as John found).   

Here are Anders and Maren in 1850 census before Kristine was born:

Hjørring, Dronninglund, Hørby, Hørby skoledistrikt, Vester Hørby, 16, FT-1850, B6324
Anders Knudsen 47  Gift  (married) gårdmand (farmer) born in Ørum sogn, Randers amt
Maren Thomasdatter 22  Gift  hans kone (his wife) born in Gærum sogn
Kirsten Andersdatter 16  Ugift (single) husfaders barn (child of Anders) born her i sognet (right here in Hørby sogn)
Knud Andersen 13  Ugift  husfaders barn her i sognet
...also four tjenestefolk (workers)

Anders first wife was Kirsten Marie Jensdatter, and the children in this census are hers.

[Toni Nebbard]

Wow...this is absolutely brilliant.  Thank you so much everyone for all the information, links and tips.  I now need to work through all this information to understand it fully....but I think I will have more questions for you!

Toni

[Lissa Pedersen]

Frederik Gunnar Sørensen is here with wife Olga in Politiets Registerblade: http://www.politietsregisterblade.dk/index.php?option=com_sfup&controller=politregisterblade&task=viewRegisterblad&id=2293769&searchname=polit_simple

Lissa

[Anni Larsen]

Hi.
Frederik Gunner Sørensen, wife and one daughter is registered in census 1916 København, Silkeborggade 6.2floor.th (th = to the right), opslag 57, 58 and 59, family 5:

Sørensen, Frederik Gunner, b. 12-1-1884 Søbymagle
Sørensen, Olga, b. 8-11-1883 Nyborg
Sørensen, Inger Aaris, b. 3-4-1913 Nykøbing F(alster).

Birthrecord Inger. Churchbook NykøbingFalster, Falster Sønder district, Maribo county, opslag 205 no 29:
Inger Aaris Sørensen, born 3 april 1913 in Nykøbing, Dronningensgade 8.
In the last coloum:  Holbæk 27.12.11 which means the parents are married in Holbæk 27. december 1911.

Holbæk Skt. Nicolaj parish, Merløse district, Holbæk county, 1892-1921, opslag 105 no 31.
Married 27. december 1911......

Kind regards
Anni Larsen

[Jane C]

So as the forum found Karl Vilhelm Sorensen had an older half brother who also studied to be a teacher at Jonstrup Seminarium, like their father VIlhelm Rudolph Sørensen (per the 1906 census that shows Frederik Gunnar Sørensen at Jonstrup).
 
Here is an online tree for the family - the link below starts with Karl Vilhelm Sorensen's paternal grandmother Gundil Høst Aaris (she was age 39 in 1860 census, above, born in Korsør):

http://www.njsoft.dk/Stamtra/index.htm

Ægteskab = marriage partner
Far = father
Mor = mother
Børn = children
Født = birth date
Død = death date
Sted = place

[Jane C]

Anders Knudsen was born about 1802 in Ørum sogn, Randers amt. In 1838 he’s mentioned as a public official in Hørby parish in Sorø amt (per the Vester Hørby website, link posted by John). In the 1840 census (with his first wife) Anders’s occupation is gårdejer, sogneforstander (farmer, parish bailiff/public official of some kind). Anders Knudsen bought land from his father Knud Willadsen, who came from Ørum sogn in Randers Amt.

********
This must be Knud in 1801:

1801
Randers, Galten, Ørum, Wæth by, , 12, FT-1801, B4995
Knud Willadsen 31 Gift (married) husbond snedker og selvejer husmand med jord (carpenter and freeholder smallholder who owns land)
Maren Andersdatter 28 Gift hans kone (married, his wife)
Marie Kirstine Knudsdatter 3 Ugift deres datter (unmarried, their daughter)
Willads Knudsen 65 Enke(mand), mandens fader, daglejer (widower, Knud’s father, day laborer)

********

1787
Randers, Galten, Ørum, Wæth by, , 15, FT-1787, B4994
Jens Michelsen and Anna Christina Pedersdatter farm family…
…Knud Villadssen 18 Ugift tjenestekarl (worker/hired hand)

1787
Randers, Galten, Ørum, Wæth by, , 18, FT-1787, B4994
Villads Knudsen 48 Gift mand husmand
Maren Knudsdatter 62 Gift kone
Anna Villadsdatter 22 Ugift deres datter
Anders Jenssen 6 Ugift mandens brodersøn


********

I can’t read enough of the Vester Hørby website to understand how Knud came to own the farm in Sorø amt on the island of Sjaelland when he comes from Randers amt on the peninsula of Jutland.

[Jane C]

1880
Sorø, Slagelse, Boeslunde, Boeslunde Sogn, Gryderup, et Hus, 1, FT-1880, C7361
Frederik Sørensen 75 Gift Husfader, pensioneret Skolelærer og Dbmd. Faarevejle Sogn, Holbek Amt
Gunild Høst Aaris 58 Gift hans Hustru Korsør
Vilhelmine Marie Sørensen 29 Ugift dere  Datter Her i Sognet
Anna Marie Høst Aaris født Bentzon 80 Enke hans Svigermoder, pensioneret Jordemoder Korsør

1845
Sorø, Slagelse, Slagelse Købstad, , Hjørnet af Rosengade og Stenstueg., No.203 [Fam.6], FT-1845, A0551
Claus Witthaus 50 gift Glarmester Havrberg Sogn, Holbæk Amt [Havrebjerg Sogn] Claudine Lau 32 gift hans kone Slagelse
Caroline Witthaus 12 - deres børn Slagelse
Mine Witthaus 10 - deres børn Slagelse
Carl Witthaus 8 - deres børn Slagelse
Peter Witthaus 5 - deres børn Slagelse
Hanne Witthaus 1 - deres børn Slagelse
Gundik Aaris 25 ugift Syepige Korsør
Fredrich Wiggas 24 ugift Glarmestersvend Lubeck

1840
Sorø, Slagelse, Boeslunde, Boeslunde, et Huus, 7, FT-1840, B8619
Ane Marie Høst Aaris 41 Gift Districts-Gjordemoder
Gunild Høst Aaris 19 Ugift hendes Børn
Rudolph Theodor Høst Aaris 13 Ugift hendes Børn
Jacoba Rasmine Høst Aaris 9 Ugift hendes Børn
Florentine Høst Aaris 7 Ugift hendes Børn
Carl August Høst Aaris 4 Ugift hendes Børn

1834
Sorø, Slagelse, Korsør Købstad, Korsør købstad, Ahlgade Matrikel No 1, 1, FT-1834, C7052
Peter Høst Aaris 54 Gift Brændeviinsbrænder (I think this occupation is a distiller of spirits)
Ane Marie Bantzon 35 Gift hans Hustrue
Gundild Høst Aaris 13 Ugift deres Børn
Christian Jacob Aaris 12 Ugift deres Børn
Martin Hamann Aaris 9 Ugift deres Børn
Rudolph Theodor Aaris 7 Ugift deres Børn
Jacoba Rasmine Aaris 4 Ugift deres Børn
Florentine Petroline Aaris 1 Ugift deres Børn
Petrine Birgitte Maria Aaris 26 Gift Skolelærer C. Pedersens Kone, Huusfaderens Datter
Maren Bantzon født Worm 74 Enke Huusfaderens Svigermoder
Mette Eleonora Petersen 29 Ugift Tjenestepige

So here is the mother of Ane Marie Bahnsen/Bandsen/Bantzon/Bentzen

[Jane C]

1801
Sorø, Slagelse, Korsør Købstad, Corsøer Kiøbstæd, Ahlgaden 1, 1, FT-1801, b6470
Christ. Aaris 62  Gift Hosbonde Kiøbmand  (merchant/retailer)
Birgitte Marie Felling 40  Gift Hans Kone   
Peter Høst Aaris 20  Ugift hans Børn Bogholder  (bookkeeper/accounting)
Anna Beata Augusta 14  Ugift hans Børn   
Christiane 8  Ugift deres Børn   
Christian 7  Ugift deres Børn   
Frideriche Elisabeth 5  Ugift deres Børn   
Jens Christian 3  Ugift deres Børn   
Karen Zarine 2  Ugift deres Børn   
Peder Winther 27  Ugift Tienestefolk Kramboekarl 
Søren Høeberg Wiet 17  Ugift Tienestefolk Kramboedreng 
Poul Clausen 27  Ugift Tienestefolk Brendeviinskarl 
Jens Hansen Rante 19  Ugift Tienestefolk Halvkarl 
Anders Pedersen 21  Ugift Tienestefolk Bryggerkarl 
Carl Hatting 15  Ugift Tienestefolk Bryggerdreng 
Christen Christensen 60  Gift Tienestefolk tiener for Kosten 
Marie Pedersdatter 24  Ugift Tienestefolk Tienestepige 
Kirsten Nielsdatter 46  Enke Tienestefolk Barnepige 
Sophie Nielsdatter 26  Gift Tienestefolk Amme 
Ane Christensdatter 48  Gift Tienestefolk Malkepige

[Jane C]

This could be Maren Thomasdatter, wife of Anders Knudsen.

1834
Hjørring, Horns, Gærum, Donbek, en gaard, 16, FT-1834, C7524
Thomas Christian Svendsen 33 Gift gaardmand
Mariane Olesdatter 33 Gift hans kone
Birthe Katrine Thomsdatter 9 Ugift deres børn
Maren Thomsdatter 6 Ugift deres børn
Svend Christian Thomsen 3 Ugift deres børn
Birthe Christensdatter 57 Enke aftægtskone
…plus 5 tjenestefolk…


1845
It must be that the father Thomas Christian was called by his middle name Christian and here the children are noted as “Christiansdatter” and “Christiansen.”
Hjørring, Horns, Gærum, Gjerum, Donbek, en Gaard, 11, FT-1845, B3877
Thomas Christian Svendsen 43 Gift Ejer af gården. Åsted s, Hjørring a
Mariane Nielsdatter 43 Gift Hans kone Her i sognet
Berte Katrine Christiansdatter 20 Ugift Deres børn Her i sognet
Maren Christiansdatter 17 Ugift Deres børn Her i sognet
Svend Christiansen 14 Ugift Deres børn Her i sognet
Niels Christiansen 9 Ugift Deres børn Her i sognet
Bærte Christensdatter 69 Enke(mand) Forsørges af ejeren af no. 11 Donbek Her i sognet
…plus 3 tjenestefolk…

[Toni Nebbard]

A big thank you again.  You are very kind to be spending time on these look-ups for me.   

I want to try to find the original records to each of these transcriptions, but I am struggling a bit to understand some of the search fields on the archive websites.  For example I wasn't getting many hits on the www.ddd.dda.dk  website when I searched for Sorensen not realising that if I entered Sørensen  it would bring up completely different results.  This took me around 5 hours to understand this was the problem!  It doesn't help that my standard English keyboard doesn't give me some of the characters used in the Danish set. 

My complete lack of knowledge about the geography and language is making this process very slow (frustrating but enjoyable).  I am using the translation website suggested by Jane (thank you for all your help) - but often I cannot read the writing in the first place!

I have a question about whether there is an easy way of finding a marriage in the church registers e.g. whether there are any transcripts to help find an entry.  As this could be very slow in places like Copenhagen where you do not know what church it may be in.  I will post the question to a new thread, otherwise it may get a bit confusing to post it on this thread.

Toni

[Jane C]

Hi Tonni. That's too bad about the five hours of frustration. Yes, that ddd.dda.dk search engine is not very forgiving about spellings. And the spelling of a name can certainly vary from one census year to another. You can read about the use of wildcards on the home page. To use them effectively though it helps to know, for example, that ø is not o, or that a V name (Danish style) can become a W name (German style).

While still in this thread, and before you move on, I wanted to point out that in 1880 in Gryderup, Boeslunde Sogn, Slagelse, Sorø, Denmark, the grandfather of Karl Vilhelm,
Frederik Sørensen, age 75, born in Faarevejle Sogn, Holbek Amt,
is a retired teacher and Dbmd.

I think Dbmd is an abbreviation for Dannebrogsmand, a person decorated with the Silver Cross of the Order of the Dannebrog, a high honor. Maybe some more expert person can verify this.

[Toni Nebbard]

Dear Jane - this is wonderful.  I do hope you are correct about the Dbmd as this would be very exciting. I will need to start digging to find out more!

The records are all starting to make a bit of sense now.  I have just managed to find Frederik Sørensen's  marriage to Gunild Host Aaris in 1855 by going through the Boeslunde records.  It confirms he was 50 when he married, so I expect he had been married before.

But I still feel as if I haven't go this searching thing right yet.  For instance I found Frederik on the 1860 census by the transcript (pointed out by this thread - Sorø, Slagelse, Boeslunde, Gryderup Skoledistrikt, Gryderup By, , Skolen, 161, FT-1860) but when I searched the actual census records on the arkivalieronline.dk website (1860>Landsogn>Soro>Slagelse>Boeslunde)  I went through the 40 images but could not find it.  Perhaps I missed it, I will go through them again or perhaps I am not looking in the right place.

Thanks again

Toni

[Jane C]

I’m glad you started a thread seeking help with the Danish church records and hope that will result in some useful tips from the forum‘s expert researchers.

Yes, you seem to have a family here who prospered and made significant contributions.

About the Order of the Dannebrog (Dannebrogordenen): There are several levels of awards in the order; the highest are reserved for nobility. Ordinary, but upstanding, citizens received the lowest award in the order. If we’re right about the abbreviation meaning, Frederik Sørensen would likely have been made a Knight of the Dannebrog (Dannebrog = the Danish flag) in this latter category. As a teacher Frederik Sørensen had a significant role to play in the community. Being honored as a Ridder af Dannebrog would be a recognition of special achievement in community leadership and public service. Also I think this award was usually made upon retirement - that's my impression, not a solid fact.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dannebrog

A parish baliff also played an important role in the parish, which was not just a congregation but also a unit of government. The bailiff watched over the congregation dues and helped the parish priest in many ways. Anders Knudsen was a parish bailiff.

An online poster (in 2003) talks about the register of the recipients of all Royal Danish honours (called, I think, Knogelilg Dansk Hofog Statskalender). The register is held at the Royal Palace. The poster says you can write for a photocopy of an entry in the register. There probably won’t be much information except the date an award was received. At the least writing to them might confirm or rule out that Frederik did receive the award. The poster says the address to write to is:
Ordenskapitlet,
Chr. VIII Palæ,
Amalienborg, 1257,
København

[Toni Nebbard]

Many thanks Jane this is all very interesting - I will write for the photocopy.

Also to say that I finally found the entry I was looking for in the 1860 census - but the family name didn't look like Sørensen at all (opslag 24) which is why I missed it.  In the end I found it by looking for anyone aged 56 as I could read the numbers but not the letters!  When I found it the family name looked as if it started with the letter O.  Oh well I am learning!

Kind regards

Toni

[Jane C]

I'm glad you found that Toni.

Lots of information for you to work through - it seems you are "having at it," and progressing one step at a time. Bravo!

I'm still curious about how Knud Villadsen came to be a landowner in a distant place from his home. Maybe through his wife...? I have not investigated or tried to translate the text John found.

Also I wondered about this job title:

1840
Sorø, Slagelse, Boeslunde, Boeslunde, et Huus, 7, FT-1840, B8619
Ane Marie Høst Aaris 41 Gift Districts-Gjordemoder

I haven't too often seen a woman of this period with a job title other than homemaker, wife, or sewer, governess/private tutor, and similar...I would guess this is unusual. This feels to me like a social worker kind of position - but know that I have absolutely no basis for saying that.

Norman Madsen's Danish Dictionary page lists some translations for old-fashioned job titles:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/colin.swift/danish.htm

[Lissa Pedersen]

Hi,

District Gjordemoder = district jordemoder = district midwife.

Lissa

[Jane C]

Ah! The word "moder" in there made me think she was doing something "mothery." 
 
Thanks Lissa!

Do you have a thought about what "Dbmd." stands for in the following?

1880
Sorø, Slagelse, Boeslunde, Boeslunde Sogn, Gryderup, et Hus, 1, FT-1880, C7361
Frederik Sørensen 75 Gift Husfader, pensioneret Skolelærer og Dbmd. Faarevejle Sogn, Holbek Amt

[Lissa Pedersen]

I think, as you wrote earlier, that it's Dannebrogsmand.

Lissa

[Jane C]

Thanks Lissa.