Johanne Jensdatter, b. abt 1788

Min indstillinger Ny bruger

[R N]

Could someone please help me find more info about this woman?  Johanne Jensdatter, born about 1788, possibly Torkilstrup (if 1845 is the right census for her), married to Peder Hansen Mortensen (b. abt 1779 to Morten Pedersen and Ane Hansdatter, d. 10 December 1831 Væggerløse), sometime before first child was born in 1820 in Væggerløse.  4 children.  I haven't had any luck finding a birth, marriage, or death record for her, or earlier census than 1834.

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Væggerløse Bye, , Fittingehuuset, 29, FT-1834
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Anne Nielsdatter   70    Enke      Fattiglem   
Johanne Jensdatter   46    Enke      Fattiglem   
Morten Pedersen   14    Ugift      hendes søn   
Hans Jørgen Pedersen   12    Ugift      hendes søn   
Jens Pedersen   5    Ugift      hendes søn   
Christiane Pedersdatter   8    Ugift      hendes datter   
Kirsten Hansdatter   49    Enke      Boende til Leie,ernærede sig ved Haandarbejde

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Væggerløse bye, , Fattighuset, 39, FT-1840
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Kirsten Nielsdatter   49    Enke      Almisselem   
Anders Hansen   19    Ugift      Hendes Søn   
Lars Hansen   44    Gift         
Catrine Hansdatter   38    Gift      Hans Kone   
Karen Larsdatter   15    Ugift      Hans børn   
Hans Larsen   9    Ugift      Hans børn   
Ole Larsen   7    Ugift      Hans børn   
Kirsten Hansdatter   58    Enke      Almisselem   
Anne Nielsdatter   76    Enke      Almisselem   
Johanne Jensdatter   52    Enke      Almisselem   
Christiane Pedersdatter   14    Ugift      Hendes børn   
Jens Peder Pedersen   12    Ugift      Hendes børn   

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, fornevnte Væggerløse, , Fattighuset, 18 F3, FT-1845
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Johanne Jensdatter   57    Enke      Almisselem   Torkildstrup Sogn, Nyk. Amt

Thank you!

[John Wrenholt]

same person?

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Væggerløse By, , Et Fattighuus, 20 F5, FT-1850
Johanne Jensdatter 58  Enke  Almisselem Lillebrænde Sogn
Karen Nielsdatter 50  Ugift  Almisselem Idestrup Sogn

[R N]

John - I don't think so, because the age doesn't match up, and the birthplace is different, although they are right next to each other....what do you think about the age?  It should be 62.  The actual census clearly says 58.  AO:  Landsogn, Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse 1850 ops 4 family #20.  But I'm going to look through Lillebrænde just in case...

Did couples generally get married in the wife's home church if they were not from the same parish?

[Jane C]

Hi Robin, yes the bride's home church is the most likely place they are married.

[R N]

I found the baptismal record for the Johanne Jensdatter of the 1850 census, and also found her in the 1801 census.  Still not sure if it's the right person.  Haven't been able to find a marriage record for this Johanne. 

AO:  1710-1814 Lillebrænde, Falster Nørre, Maribo ops 73 no. 6

Maribo, Falsters Nørre, Lillebrænde, Barup Bye, , , 11te familie, FT-1801
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Jens Hansen   45    Gift   Mand   Jordløs huusmand og Daglejer   
Maren Hansdatter   41    Gift   Hans kone [Jens Hansen]      
Johanne Jensdatter   9    Ugift   Deres børn [Jens Hansen og Maren Hansdatter]      
Karen Jensdatter   6    Ugift   Deres børn [Jens Hansen og Maren Hansdatter]   

[Jane C]

Could this be Jens and Maren in 1787?

Maribo, Falsters Nørre, Torkilstrup, Sullerup Bye, , , FT-1787, C5927
.....many  people....
Jens Hansen 29 Gift Hosbonde Indsidder og Daglejer
Maren Hansdatter 28 Gift Huusmoder [Jens Hansen]

Johanne Jensdatter said to be born in Torkildstrup Sogn, Nyk. Amt (in the 1845 census) was born in
Lillebrænde, Falster Nørre, Maribo?  I haven't looked up how the relevant place names changed over time...but I have not seen Nykøbing Amt before. I wonder where that came from. The above couple is in Torkilstrup.

[R N]

Torkilstrup and Lillebrænde looked to be neighbors, and when I googled Nykøbing Amt, on a current map, anyway, it shows up as Nykøbing Falster, kind of where Torkilstrup and Lillebrænde were.

[Jane C]

Nykøbing Amt, in the 1845 census, is the birth place noted for Johanne Jensdatter. I realize there's a town of Nykøbing Falster, earlier called Nykøbing, on the west coast of Falster. What I was wondering about was the "amt" part, which would make it not a town but a Danish "county" (or similar to a U.S. state). Okay, I just did a quick google search and found: "Nykøbing amt blev oprettet i 1662 af det tidligere Nykøbing Len. Amtet bestod af herrederne...." IAnyway we know Torkilstrup-Lillebrænde are in Falsters Nørre herred. I think you have the facts right - I was just curious about the history of the place names.

[R N]

So in your opinion - do you think it is the right person?  Even though the age is off?

[Jane C]

Hard question.

1. Johanne Jensdatter in Væggerløse in 1834, 1840, and 1845 is consistently born about 1788; born in Torkildstrup Sogn, Nyk. Amt

2. Yes I think you found a baptismal record in Lillebrænde for Johanne Jensdatter (born about 1792?), and two census records (one from John) that match:
1850 census in Væggerløse, Johanne Jensdatter 58 born about 1792 in Lillebrænde Sogn
1801 census in Lillebrænde, Johanne Jensdatter 9, born about 1792

Are Torkildstrup and Lillebrænde records in the same churchbook these years? I haven't gone on AO - it's nice when the info is all on the forum, otherwise my head spins.

Whether it's the same person...? John seemed to think it could possibly be one person and I hope he'll weigh in again, or another of the fabulous forum members. Doesn't seem like the same Johanne though because of the consistency in the age of Johanne 1 and Johanne 2 in a set of three records for each.

Need to recheck the census to see if they are both present in the same census year. At the moment I cannot recall if two Johannes are there.

[Ralph Rasmussen]

Johanne's youngest son, Jens Peder Pedersen, was born May 19, 1829 (Væggerløse 1813-1838, opslag 36) to her and Peder Hansen.  That Peder Hansen seems to be Peder (Hansen) Mortensen who died at Væggerløse December 10, 1831 (opslag 216).

Trolling in FS, the most likely Peder n.n. and Johanne Jensdatter marriage between 1808 and 1820 seems to be Nykøbing Falster July 15, 1820 with Peder Mortensen.

I am out of time at the moment to see whether that can fit with Johanne's birth ca. 1788 and Peder's birth ca. 1781.

mvh
-Ralph

[Helmer Christiansen]

...
I haven't looked up how the relevant place names changed over time...but I have not seen Nykøbing Amt before. I wonder where that came from. The above couple is in Torkilstrup.
...

The county division in Denmark was changed in 1793 when 24 counties were reduced to 17 counties.
Maribo county was formed by a merger of Halsted, Ålholm and Nykøbing counties.

Torkilstrup was a parish in the former Nykøbing county (on the island Falster).

[John Wrenholt]

I'm going to list these birth records so I don't have to keep looking them up. I probably messed up on some of the sponsors' names. It appears that the family was living in the village of Stovby at this time.

Morten Pedersen: AO: 1813-1838 Vægglerløse ops 15
Birth date: Dec ?? 1820
Bapt date: Jan 14, 1821
Father's name as listed: Peder Mortensen
Sponsors: Hans Kromand's wife??, Peder Pedersen, Lars Jyde

Hans Jørgensen Pedersen: AO 1813-1838 Vægglerløse ops 17
Birth date: Jan 15, 1823
Bapt date: Feb 23, 1823
Father's name as listed: Peder Hansen Mortensen
Sponsors: Rasmus Jens Sørensen, Hans Jensen Kromand, Ole Larsen, Morten??

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Idestrup, Ourupgaard Hovedgaard, , -, _, FT-1845
Hans Jørgen Pedersen 23  Ugift  Tienestefolk Væggerløse Sogn, Mb. Amt

Christiane Pedersen: AO 1813-1838 Vægglerløse ops 69
Birth date: Oct 8, 1826
Bapt date: Jan 14, 1827
Father's name as listed: Peder Hansen
Sponsors: Karen Jensdatter & ??

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Veggerløse Sogn, Bruserup Bye, , en Gaard, 15, FT-1845
Christiane Pedersdatter 18  Ugift  Tjenestepige Do [Her i Sognet] [Væggerløse]


Jens Peder Pedersen: AO 1813-1838 Vægglerløse ops 36
Birth date: May 19, 1829
Bapt date: Jul 5, 1829
Father's name as listed: Peder Hansen
Sponsors: Jacob Morten Kok, Hans Kromand, Christen ??

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Væggerløse By, , en Gaard, 3 F1, FT-1845
Jens Peter Pedersen 16  Ugift  Tjenestefolk Her i S. [Væggerløse]

[Ralph Rasmussen]

The Nykøbing 1784-1824, opslag 208 marriage does not fit the respective ages of Johanne and Peder Hansen.  The answer is somewhere else.

mvh
-Ralph 

[R N]

Wish I knew where that somewhere else was.....where else can I look for more clues? 

Thanks for all the help with this!

[R N]

I *think* I have found her death record.  AO:  1839-1867 Vægglerløse ops 232 #10.  The age would fit with her being born abt 1788-1789.  It looks like it might say Torkilstrup in the last column, but I don't know what the heading is (notes?).  There is a word under her spouse's name that looks the same as the word that is listed by her name on her son's death record - maybe the Stovby that John mentioned in his last post?  AO:  1892-1903 Vægglerløse ops 248 #12 Hans Jørgen Pedersen (except it says that his father was Peder Rasmussen, everything else fits for him - could that just be a mistake on the writer's part?)

I also wonder about the Hans Kromand person that is mentioned on 3 of the bap records.  I can't seem to find him on any census, though.

[John Wrenholt]

Nice finds!

I think the last words in the death record are "Væggerløse fattighus". Maybe a good next step is to try and locate her in the untranscribed census records for 1855 and 1860.

[John Wrenholt]

I found her in the 1860 census for Væggerløse (ops 6). She is listed as 66 years old and born in Torkilstrup. In the 1855 census, I find (living at the fattighus) the "other" Johanne Jensdatter. She is age 64 and born in Lillebrænde Sogn (15). I'll keep looking.

[Ralph Rasmussen]

Without finding her marriage, Johanne Jensdatter doesn't get any less complicated. 

A Johanne, daughter of Jens Hansen in Barup is confirmed in Torkildstrup in 1809 (1783-1814, opslag 97 #24) and baptized in Lillebrænde in 1792 (1710-1814, opslag 73, top right).  Barup is a stone's throw from the parish border.  The two entries don't agree on her age, but it has to be the same person. 

mvh
-Ralph

[R N]

Where do you think she got married?  I tried looking through Torkilstrup and Lillebrænde, and even Vægglerløse, but didn't have any luck.  Do you think the ones found in the census are the same person?  Can a person really be that wishy-washy on their age?

[Jane C]

I also wonder about the Hans Kromand person that is mentioned on 3 of the bap records.  I can't seem to find him on any census, though.

1787 - This could be Hans Jensen Kromand:
Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Weggerløse Bye, , 10, FT-1787, C1997
Jens Kroemand 26 Ugift Hosbonde Gaardbeboer
Froe Jensdatter 52 Enke Hosbondens Moder Opholder sig hos sin Søn
Hans Jensen 19 Ugift Børn
Peder Jensen 18 Ugift Børn
Ane Jensdatter 24 Ugift Børn
Berthe Jensdatter 22 Ugift Børn
Maren Jensdatter 10 Ugift Børn
Hans Jeppesen 51 Gift Mand Hiuulmand
Ane Jensdatter 51 Gift Kone
Jens Hansen 23 Ugift Søn

1801
Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Væggerløse, , 7, FT-1801, B8365
Jens Jensen 41 Gift Hosbonde Bonde og Gaardbeboer
Maren Pedersdatter 35 Gift Hans Kone
Jens Jensen 4 Ugift Deres Søn
Fro Jenses 67 Enke Mandens Moder Hos nærværende
Hans Jensen 33 Ugift Mandens broder
Maren Jensdatter 21 Ugift Mandens Søster
Peder Olsen 25 Ugift Tienestekarl

[Jane C]

Read the thread today, and I can see you all have in mind the information for Johanne/the Johannes. To help myself track it, I updated the summary of information. In case it helps any other reader, I'll post it here.

The records for Johanne 1 and Johanne 2 do not overlap -- nothing has turned up to show two Johannes present in the same year. "Johanne 1" and "Johanne 2" both claim to be born in either Torkilstrup and/or Lillebrænde. Johanne 1. appears to move out of the Væggerløse poorhouse after 1845 to make way for Johanne 2 in 1850; then Johanne 1 moves back into the poorhouse for 1855.

Hmmm.

X. JOHANNE. Johanne 1? Johanne Jensdatter marries Peder Mortensen 15 July 1820 in Nyk. Falster. Age/birth year? (Nykøbing 1784-1824 ops 208)

JOHANNE 1.
* Johanne Jenssdatter in 1821, 1823, 1827, 1829 is in Vægglerløse sogn having her children:
i. Morten Pedersen (father Peder Mortensen)
ii. Hans Jørgensen Pedersen (father Peder Hansen Mortensen)
iii. Christiane Pedersen (father Peder Hansen)
iv. Jens Peder Pedersen (father Peder Hansen, same man as Peter Mortensen d. 1831)
* Johanne in 1834 in Væggerløse poorhouse; age 46 - born about 1788
* Johanne in 1840 in Væggerløse poorhouse; age 52 - born about 1788
* Johanne in 1845 in Væggerløse poorhouse; age 57 - born about 1788 in Torkildstrup sogn
* Johanne in 1855 in Væggerløse poorhouse; age 64 - born about 1789 in Lillebrænde
* Johanne dies in XX (year not posted on the forum) in Vægglerløse poorhouse, ops 232 #10

JOHANNE 2.
* Johanne in 1792 baptized in Lillebrænde (father Jens Hansen); born 1792
* Johanne in 1801 census in Lillebrænde (father Jens Hansen); age 9 -  born about 1792
* Johanne in 1809 confirmed in Torkilstrup (father Jens Hansen of Barup) - her age? (not posted on the forum)
* Johanne in 1850 in Væggerløse poorhouse; age 58 - born in Lillebrænde about 1792
* Johanne in 1860 in Væggerløse (was this in the poorhouse?); age 66 - born about 1794 in Torkilstrup

Just to think out loud a bit: It’s a problem that Johanne 1 and Johanne 2 are consistent about their age gap of about six years. However, Ralph points out that the baptismal record and the confirmation record contradict each other about that Johanne’s age, yet she is clearly the same person, he says. If try to make this be one person, we can do it, with various explanations. One explanation could be that she suffered from early onset Alzheimer’s disease, or some other reason that another responsible person is reporting her data to the census taker. Maybe simply being a resident of the poorhouse is enough reason for someone else - not herself - to report her data. In that case the responsible person may refer to the baptismal record, or to the confirmation record, to know her age - and hence the consistency of the age gap, which simply repeats the original error in the confirmation record. Does that fit with the way things might work in a Danish census in this era?

[Jane C]

The 1809 confirmation gives a different birth year (she should be about age 16-17, but isn't, Ralph says). I'm guessing the confirmation record makes her too young to be born 1792 - not too old...? After all a girl born in 1788 should be confirmed about 1802. I'm having trouble picturing a 21-year-old in an 1809 confirmation record.

However, it doesn't matter; if the two Johannes are the same person, then one can never know for sure where the age gap comes from.

The striking fact is that the two don't appear in the records in the same year, yet they do appear in the exact same dwelling house.

[Ralph Rasmussen]

That Nykøbing marriage in 1820 has Johanne born 1794-1795, consistent with the slightly incorrect 1809 confirmation.  Peder (Hansen?) Mortensen would have been born in 1792-1793, at least according to whatever document he presented as ID.

The 1866 death record has Johanne aged 77, consistent with the other age we have, but not an age we can confirm from the respective parish records. 

If there is a probate for Jens Hansen, and perhaps after 1820, it may connect the Johanne born in 1792 to Peder.

mvh
-Ralph

[R N]

Is everyone under the concensus, then, that Johanne 1 and Johanne 2 are the same person, even though the ages are all different?  I wonder why she would have gotten married in Nykøbing?

Jane, for the marriage record, the ages were 27 for Peder and 25 for Johanne, making him born in 1793 and her in 1795.  The other records I have for Peder puts him at about 1779, so that's quite a big difference.  I have not been able to find a birth record for him yet, so I'll work on that.  Maybe the rest is right and we just have the wrong marriage record?  Is there any possibility that they did NOT get married in a church?

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Weggerløse Bye, , Huusmænd, 11, FT-1787
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Morten Pedersen   50    Gift   Mand   Dagleyer   
Ane Hansdatter   52    Gift   Kone      
Peder Mortensen   8       Søn af 2det ægteskab

Maribo, Falsters Sønder, Væggerløse, Væggerløse, , , 37, FT-1801
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Occupation in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Morten Pedersen   65    Gift   Mand   Jordløs Huusmand og Tømmermand   
Ane Hansdatter   66    Gift   Hans Kone      
Peder Mortensen   22    Ugift   Hans Søn af 2det ægteskab   

As far as the 1860 census for Johanne, I don't think it says fattighus, but I'm not sure.

As I was writing this, Ralph posted.  Where would we find probate records for Jens Hansen, Ralph?

[R N]

Ralph, where would I go to find probate records for Jens Hansen?

[R N]

Not sure if this really matters or not, but there is a Johanne Jensdatter in Idestrup in 1855, age 76 (which is kind of old for "our" Johanne, but I just thought I'd mention it).  I'm not sure what it says for the birthplace, though.  opslag 13 no. 16

I think I also found her in 1860, in Idestrup.  opslag 4 no. 14  Looks like it says same thing for birthplace as 1855, maybe V. Tiersted?  Would that be in Fuglse Herred?  The age is off, again, though - age 77. 

I can't get on ddd right now to see where she was in 1850, so I guess I'll have to look through censuses to find her. 

[R N]

Bummer.  I found her in 1850, married to Peder Jensen.  ops 3 no. 8

[R N]

Can someone please tell me where to look for probate records?  Thanks!

[Jane C]

Hi Robin - maybe because of not getting an answer this question would merit a separate thread?

I don't know the best way.

Sometimes, randomly, one will find that a kind soul has typed probates for a given parish and put them on the internet.

Dansk Demografisk Database has some probates (select skifteprotokoller).

Here from ddd.dda.dk is their description of more probates to come, and what can be ordered on microfilm now, with help from the Family History Library/Mormon church volunteers:

http://www.ddd.dda.dk/dprob/AboutInd.html

This article is to give a summary of who created this index and how this project came to be.

Over a period of about 20 years many volunteers in Utah helped to create some genealogy aids for Danish probate records. These volunteers were mostly older, retired Scandinavians. They were not always experts on reading old Danish handwriting and there are mistakes in their work. Since probate records are particularly difficult for people without Danish language skills and are extremely valuable for genealogy research, these volunteers who could read Danish hoped to help others by creating indexes and extracts to these records.

This group of volunteers started two projects dealing with probates:

They created extracts of probate records for parishes in each county of Denmark where the original church records had burned about 1750-1814 and there were no early church records. This was a way of making substitute records that could be used.

They started a general index of all probate records for each county in Denmark. The most difficult part of doing research in Danish probate records is identifying which probate jurisdiction to try. There were often four or five estates, as well as other jurisdictions (cavalry, hospital, cloister, county, district) that may have kept probates in a particular parish. It is often difficult to identify which of these need to be searched and to make sure every possibility was covered. By making a composite index of each of the probate books for a county, one would only have one source to look at instead of 5-10 different sources.

The first project was finished and resulted in published volumes for each county of Denmark. Unfortunately these are not in electronic format, but hopefully in the future they can be digitized and made available on the Internet. In the meantime they are available on microfilm through the Family History Library or Family History Centers. I do have a list of all the parishes and probate jurisdictions that were extracted as part of this project which I will try to put on the Internet soon.

The second project was to complete a composite index to all the probate records for each county. The first county that was done was Hjørring County. This project was completed and the result is found on the films FHL #1145509-1145519. These records were done on cards.

The next county was Ålborg county, which was done on an old Tartan system computer. It was possible to convert these files to our present system through the help of Jed Allen. The format for the Ålborg county database was a little different than the next three counties. The main difference is that when a surname was given besides a patronymic name, two entries were made in the database, one for each surname. This made the Ålborg database bigger than the other subsequent counties and also makes it look like some entries are duplicated in the index.

The Ålborg county index and the next three counties: Viborg, Thisted, and Randers were all for the most part completed and prepared in electronic format. This project took a lot of time. The counties of Århus and Skanderborg were also started and included about 150 films to be indexed, but the managers at the Family History Library decided there would be no more work on indexing projects. David Otteson, who had supervised and been involved with this project longer than anyone else decided to continue to work on those films after his retirement in 1998. At that time the four counties that had been completed were turned over to me.

Over the space of two years several inquiries and attempts were made to convert the data in this index to microfiche cards so they could be made available at the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. There was no funding available, but if I wanted to pay out of my own pocket, they might reimburse me. Without better computer expertise it would cost quite a bit to have the data converted to microfiche cards. Instead I decided to pay a friend (Richard Hansen) to create a search engine and post the information on the Internet. That way it would be able to help more people and at the same time save me some money.

Since I really believe this database can help a lot of people, it seemed more beneficial to have it posted with other Danish databases where it will be easy to find and search for people doing genealogical research. I have therefore contributed this database to the DDD to be added along with their databases on census, emigration, and dannebrogsmend, where it can be of most help to genealogists. In doing this I am hoping the sacrifice of time that many volunteers made over several years will finally be able to do what they intended. This is dedicated to their hard work. Hopefully someday similar indexes or a project to do the other counties of Denmark will also be done.

There is also another possibility. A copy of this database was also given to the digitizing team at the Family History Library. It should be possible to link this index to thousand films that were indexed so that a person could do a search and from the index go to the image of the original probate. That way you could look at the original probate records in your own home over the Internet and be able to search these images with this wonderful index. In order to do that, they would need permission of the Danish archives to digitize the original probate records, but this is not a difficult task. They are doing several similar projects. Hopefully this possibility will be available in the future either through the Family History Library, the Danish National Archives, or a private group like Ancestry.com.

In the meantime, at least this index will be able to help those doing research in these counties. The part I am most excited about is to be able to search by town name and be able to sort things on different levels. Play with it, have fun, and good luck with your family research endeavors!