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Forfatter Emne: Anne Elisabeth Speis - born 1764 in Haderslev ?  (Læst 631 gange)
Inger Toudal [1655]
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« Svar #30 Dato: 04 Nov 2018 - 01:24 »


The wedding record has only the date for reading the banns: 7th Sunday after Trinity, and the date when the couple registered
in order to get married: 26 Jul. 1808. The date of marriage (rightmost column) is missing.

The marriage isn't in the Hovedministerialbog, either: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17116053#151599,25197619

Maybe they got married in another parish?

I went through the indexes to the divorce records 1806-1808, but didn't find Anne Elisabeth's, or Detlev Jacob's name there.

It must be either here, if before Sep. 1801: http://www.starbas.net/arkivserie.php?arkivserie_id=13298&laes_mere=ja

- or here: http://www.starbas.net/arkivserie.php?arkivserie_id=13058&laes_mere=ja

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« Svar #31 Dato: 04 Nov 2018 - 08:43 »


From MyHeritage:

Anne Elisabeth Spies
Denmark Church Records, 1576-1919
Marriage:   Day Month 1808 - Place
Husband:   Name of spouse

Anne Elisabeth Spus
Anne Elisabeth Spus
Denmark Church Records, 1576-1919
Marriage:   1808 - Place
Husband:   Name of spouse

- seem to be 2 different records.

Christoph Reinholdt Løsekraut
Denmark Church Records, 1576-1919
Marriage:   Day Month 1807 - Place           ??        
Spouse:   Name of spouse

Christopher Reinhold Losekraut
Denmark Church Records, 1576-1919
Marriage:   Day Month 1808 - Place
Spouse:   Name of spouse

Christopher Reinhold Losekraut
Denmark Church Records, 1576-1919
Marriage:   1808 - Place
Spouse:   Name of spouse

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Inger
« Sidste ændring: 04 Nov 2018 - 08:55 af Inger Toudal [1655] » Logget
Christina Kaul [58035]
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« Svar #32 Dato: 04 Nov 2018 - 09:33 »

Inger,

I just found the second record

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=151575#151575,25191871

It indicates that the separation took place only in November 1807 but I cannot read the whole text. Could you please help me to see if there is any other important information included ? And still no wedding...

Regards,

Christina

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Grethe Leerbech [814]
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« Svar #33 Dato: 04 Nov 2018 - 10:08 »

Hi Christina

It is written about the divorcement.

"Foreviist en kongelig kvittering af 13de November 1807 at ægteskabet mellem ovennævnte og Ditlev Jacob Goldt manden er
ophævet og begge i samme tilladt at indgaae nyt og andet lovligt ægteskab "

And their "forlovere" was for Christoph N.J. Skellen - N.J. Sxellen? .
and for Her Siexonia xxxx. I think they are man and wife, they live at the same adresse and then comes something i cannot read  

In english: They have shown a Ryal allowance from 13.11.1807  which says that the marriage between her and Ditlev is annullated and they are free to remarry in another legal marriage


What I find a peculiar is that when she gets the 2 chrildren before 1807 the priest wrote them as legal children and the parents as married. I don't know if separations are "taken" so that children are legal.  

About MyHeritage i think you know it is full of wrong things, because people write after each other and sometimes they take it from Familysearch, where many cannot read the churchbooks and then note wrong names data etc. But you have found the right  pages in the churchbooks, and as inger told you that the first one was not the marriage but the banns and rigister date. And that could easely be mistaken in MyHeritage. 

Greetings
Grethe  
« Sidste ændring: 04 Nov 2018 - 10:11 af Grethe Leerbech [814] » Logget

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« Svar #34 Dato: 04 Nov 2018 - 10:27 »


Anne Elisabeth Speis separeret.
Foreviist en kongelig Bevilling af 13de
November 1807, at Ægteskabet imellem oven-
meldte og Ditlef Jacob Goldt maae være
ophæved, og begge i samme tilladt at ind-
gaae nyt og andet lovligt Ægteskab.

AES separated.
Presented a royal decree of 13 Nov. 1807 that
the marriage between the above mentioned and
DJG has been annulled, and both in the same
allowed to enter into a new, legal marriage.

The separation records could be at Københavns Stadsarkiv, but probably not the divorce records:   

https://www.sa.dk/da/hjaelp-og-vejledning/rigsarkivets-online-vejledninger/skilsmissesager-kom-godt-gang/

- Særlige forhold i Sønderjylland og København

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« Sidste ændring: 04 Nov 2018 - 10:56 af Inger Toudal [1655] » Logget
Christina Kaul [58035]
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« Svar #35 Dato: 04 Nov 2018 - 10:56 »

I will check with the Rigsarchivet where the divorce can be found. As we now have a date for the divorce it should be possible to trace it down. So another to-do for my December visit in Kopenhagen,

But we agree that we still have no wedding ? Is it not strange to register for the wedding in Holmens Kirke and then get married somewhere else ? I will see if I can find it in another church.....

With respect to MyHeritage I find it often helpful to get indications where to look for things. In this case I would not have looked for a second record in Holmens Kirke otherwise. But I agree that it is full of mistakes and people are simply copying from each other. So everything on there needs to be verified through original sources.

Regards,

Christina
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« Svar #36 Dato: 05 Nov 2018 - 11:12 »

About the wedding . In Denmark at that time the registration was counted as valid as the copulation.  In older times the bethrotal was more important than the marriage, and if a man or woman broke the bethrotal they could be punished or pay a big compensation.
In another way I don't think they manage to marry. She died 13th of march 1809 and the registration took place in the end of 28th of July 1808.  It is said "indskrevet til copulation", it also means that they are "enrolled" to be married in the same church, I don't think they could go to another church, they would be refused.

But of course one could wonder why they chosed Holmen church instead of the german church Sct. Petri- because their children are baptised there and it seems they belonged to the german congregation.   Guessing it could be after advice because they have given birth to the boys before the divorce came in force /was sanctioned -and in sct. Petri they where looked upon as married people.   Maybe Sct. Petri didn't marry divorced people.

If she suffered from TB or breastcancer they are sickness which take long time and one gets weaker and weaker. If it is pneumonia it is of course another thing.

Of MyHeritage and Familysearch.org I also use them both, but take care, as you write.

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Grethe
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« Svar #37 Dato: 05 Nov 2018 - 14:48 »


The betrothal ceremony (Trolovelse) was officially abolished in Denmark in 1799:

http://denstoredanske.dk/Samfund,_jura_og_politik/Jura/Retshistorie/trolovelse

https://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=trolovelse

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=151575#151575,25191608

The banns - (Til)lysning - were usually read in the church in the home parish of the bride.

Copulation was the legally binding marriage. In more recent times, the reading of the banns
and the marriage could take place in two different churches. I don't know about 1808.

One can only guess why the marriage date is not recorded in the church books for Holmens parish.

If the bride was too ill to get married in the church, the marriage could have taken place at home,
but not without a special permission for Huus-copulation:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=151585#151585,25193836

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=151585#151585,25193955

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« Svar #38 Dato: 07 Nov 2018 - 22:32 »

I understand that as the couple was registered for marriage at Holmens Kirke they were obliged to get married there and could not simply gone to another church. I checked again all the church books of Holmens and they definitely did not get married there before Elisabeth’s death in March 1809.

We can assume that the congregation in St. Petri knew about the separation and probably also about the non-marriage of Elisabeth with Christopher Reinhold Losekraut. Detlef Jacob Gold and Elisabeth Speis got married in St.Petri in 1791, the birth of four of their children was registered there. The same goes for the three children with Christopher Reinhold, the death of Elisabeth and the second marriage of Christopher Reinhold. It looks to me like the priest of St. Petri covered up the not existing second wedding and then asked the couple to get married somewhere else so the situation would not become too obvious in St. Petri. Then something went wrong - probably Elisabeth being already very sick - and the marriage scheduled in Holmens never took place. The priest in St. Petri then married Christopher Reinhold - if he was a widower or ugift did not really matter much in terms of church law.

Just to state that something like this would have been impossible in the Catholic Church.  Cry
In the Catholic Church the betrothal has no legal significance but is a only relevant under private law. Only people of wealth had betrothal contracts and these could be used in front of court if not adhered to. For all other people a betrothal was private business and often broken. Consequently also a lot of illegitimate children of father who had promised marriage and then ran off. These children were marked SPURIUS in the church book and until about 1850 had no surnames. They had problems in finding good jobs and often could not marry.
If someone wanted to marry in the Catholic Church, three wedding announcements were required in the home church of both bride and groom so anyone who knew about a marriage impediment could come forward. In case of urgency or special circumstances one announcement was enough. The wedding itself could take place in any church of choice. The priest had to check documents before the wedding and without documents no wedding could take place. The registration of a birth also required a wedding certificate, otherwise the child would be registered as illegitimate, mostly without the name of the father.

What remains odd is that the inheritance of Elizabeth has her as married with Christopher Reinhold. Did no one verify the marriage or did the priest of St. Petri again cover up on them ?

Could something explain to me what the difference of separation and divorce is so I know what to look for in what archive ?

Regards,
Christina
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« Svar #39 Dato: 08 Nov 2018 - 12:33 »

About the wedding and banns. One had to be banned 3 times. The priest read the bann in the church three times so the congratulation or other could com forward if thet hade something against it. I have only once found a wedding which took place in another church, and both priests wrote WHy and where the wedding and banns found place, and also that they have allowed the changement.

Also i don't undestand why the children of Elisabeth and christoph didn't becmae registed as illigitime. My own great-grandfather was. His parents were banned 3 times, and on the wedding day the father wanted to wash before wedding and went to a river (to swim) and drowned there . So as my great-great grandmother was pregnant at the wedding day the boy got illigitime, even if both the fathers brothers, sisters and parents were present at the baptisme and "said good for the boy", were goodfathers, carriers etc.

kind regards
Grethe
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« Svar #40 Dato: 08 Nov 2018 - 12:48 »

Separation and weddings (copulation)
Separation is a time- at least in 3 years - must the couple be mediated by the priest at their congragation. They are not divorced but they must not "share bed and table", i.e. live together or have social contact. (the definition of where the limit of the social contact is at that time I don't know,  even to-day they discuss about that.  For excample one discuss if a woman or man help with the other part with economy f.ex. buy food to them or pay their TV license etc. does they then "share table?"

If the priest doesn't succee in getting them mediated and the marriage can be resumed, (revitalised) they finally got a Ryal permission to divorce that is "from day xxx your marry are dissolved and you are allowed to remarry"  So during the separaration the couple cannot remarry - and morally they are not allowed to live together with other partners ,that is looked upon as a sinn

So why the children of Elisabeth and Christoph are not registered as illigitime I cannot answer. -se the former answer..

I gave you a link- give it here again - because in 1800-1801 there was an investigation of the couples who the last 12 years has been divorced and it was investigated why they did it and how the separation went and why they finally got divorced. You have to order it at the rigsarkiv. And of course it is in danish, but I am quite sure Elisabeth and Jacob figures in that investigation- it wented 12 years back.

But of course is it maybe better to find their separition papers and their final divorce permission.

Kindly regards
Grethe
 
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« Svar #41 Dato: 08 Nov 2018 - 13:31 »

About the original papers for the separation and divorce. As Inger wrote, she has looked through the register for sep. and cop. in Københavns stadsarkiv, and haven't found Jakob or Elisabeth in the periode 1806-1809.  So you have to visit the Rigsarkiv. and ask there. I know you have to look in 2 different archiev : Hof- og Stadsretten up to 1805 and Landsover- samt hof- og stadsretten. I know there is a register at the net -but I also know it is difficult to find what archiev within the abovementioned one has to look in.
You can ask here or ask at the rigsarkiv. 

regards
Grethe
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« Svar #42 Dato: 09 Nov 2018 - 00:08 »


The separation record(s) can most likely be found at Københavns Stadsarkiv:

https://www.kbharkiv.dk/sog-i-arkivet/kilder-pa-nettet/agteskab/separation-og-skilsmisse

"Fra 1797-1826 kunne Københavns Magistrat bevilge separation. Separationer findes
1797-1805 i magistratens protokoller og i magistratens journaler. De er ikke online."

After 3 years of separation, you could apply for divorce and the right to remarry.

Since it's noted in Holmens church book as kongelig Bevilling, the divorce record can probably be found in the archives of Danske Kancelli at Rigsarkivet:

"Skilsmisse kunne ske efter bevilling hos Danske Kancelli eller ved dom og skal derfor findes på Rigsarkivet."

http://ep.teologi.dk/Tidsskrifter/Ichthys/Ichthys-artikler/73.pdf - page 7 in the pdf-file

Are the sons Gustav Emanuel b. 1801, and Henrich Ditlev b. 1805, mentioned in Christoph Reinhold's probate 1829 (if there is one)?

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« Sidste ændring: 09 Nov 2018 - 00:28 af Inger Toudal [1655] » Logget
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« Svar #43 Dato: 09 Nov 2018 - 13:29 »

I found the probate record of Christopher Reinhold Lösekraut.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515080#34662,33004054

But I have problems reading it ! I don‘t see any reference to neither his second wife nor the two boys. But a Ann Margarethe Trentz ? A third wife ?

It looks like his younger brother Peter Didrich Lösekraut is the heir.

But maybe I got it all wrong !

I will check with the two archives where I can find separation and divorce records.

Regards,

Christina

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« Svar #44 Dato: 09 Nov 2018 - 15:59 »

About the probate record of Christoph it's says.

he is dead in his flat no. 77 Vognmagergade. His neighbour Anne Margrethe who is a widow participated at the assesment(Inventory) , and pointed out the effects belonging to Christopher- maybe she is the landlord
-(  his former 2nd wife is called Catharina Dorthea Nielsen )- and his brother Peter Lösekraut was present too. He asked that the value of the
inventary should be given to him, as he paid for the funeral and wanted this as compensation for his expences.
Which was granted. Nothing about former wife or any children.

The effects are both his cloth and inventary ex. a table, 5 chairs, a chest of drawers etc. total 8 rd 13 sk  8 rigsdaler and 14 Schilling

 But at the bottum is a note 5B page   250 which i don't know what is.

kind regards
Grethe
Logget

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« Svar #45 Dato: 09 Nov 2018 - 17:03 »


Forseglingsprotokol:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515080#34662,33004054 - No 1256

..... Ved Forretningen var
nærværende Enken Anne Margrethe
Frentzen(?), som er Nabo til den afdøde.
Hun anviiste hvad Boet tilhører, som ...

Behandlingsprotokol:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515097#34683,33008256 - No 1256
- Major Wadskiær allegedly owed CRL 105 ??

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515097#34684,33008460 - No 1256
- widow Petronelle Kelly is the landlady

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515097#34684,33008635 - No 1256
- surviving widow mentioned

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515097#34684,33008636 - No 1256 (left page & right page)

No children mentioned, as far as I can see. Maybe nothing left to inherit?

København, København (Staden), Frimand Kvarter, Klosterstræde Huset Nr 85, 3die Sal, 1, FT-1845, C2733
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in houshold:     Occupation:
Birgithe Christine Læsekraut     68     Ugift            Enke efter Skrædermester Løsekraut      Flensborg   [CRL's or his brother Peter's widow?]
Nicoline Stephanie Aaberg     17     Ugift            Hendes Pleiedatter      Ørebakke paa Island  
Niels Frederik Møller     30     Ugift            Elev af Konstacademiet      Odense  

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« Svar #46 Dato: 09 Nov 2018 - 23:39 »

Did you find any name for the widow ?

Peter Ditrich Lösekraut married in 1812 in St. Petri Birgitta Christina Dorothea Nielsen. Two boys were born in 1812 and 1814. Peter died in 1841 in Hellegands Kirke. So the 1845 census refers to his widow.

So the boys were already dead in 1829, otherwise they would be mentioned ?

Christina
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« Svar #47 Dato: 11 Nov 2018 - 00:30 »


No, I didn't find a name for CRL's widow in the probate records.

She is mentioned the first time 21 Jan. 1832: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515097#34684,33008635 - No 1256

Afg. Skrædermester Christian Reinholdt Løse-
krauts og efterlevende Enkes Boe, som den
12te Decbr 1829 er sluttet, blev nu .....

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« Svar #48 Dato: 11 Nov 2018 - 08:41 »

After the death of Ann Elisabeth Speis on 13 March 1809 Christoph Reinhold Lösekraut married Christiane Kirschner on 6 December 1809 in St.Petri.

Christiane Kirschner was a widow after Christen Lund. They had married on 15 December 1799 in Garnisons Sogn. This was already her second marriage as she is referred to as ‚enke‘.

I found her in the 1787 census as a maid aged 24 years, therefore birth date around 1763, so same age as Ann Elisabeth Speis.

Christiane Kirschner died on 14.21.1825 in St. Petri age 62 years.

But I could not find any further marriage of CRL in St.Petr between 1825 and 1829.

I find it a bit strange that the widow is not mentioned earlier than 1832 ??

Regards,

Christina
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« Svar #49 Dato: 12 Nov 2018 - 00:55 »


There is a reference to Skifte Commissionen for Aarene 1824 og 1825, when the probate is resumed 21 Jan. 1832:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515097#34684,33008635 - right page

Forseglingsprotokol 16 Dec. 1825: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515080#34599,32991335 - No 1405

Behandlingsprotokol: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515097#34617,32995125 - No 1405

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« Sidste ændring: 12 Nov 2018 - 01:26 af Inger Toudal [1655] » Logget
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« Svar #50 Dato: 12 Nov 2018 - 19:07 »

Inger, thanks a lot.

I checked again about the two boys from the ‚marriage‘ between Ann Elisabeth Speis and Christoph Reinhold Lösekraut.

Gustav Immanuel was born 1801 and Henrik Detlef in 1805.
Gustav was confirmated in St. Petri in 1817.

That‘s the last sign of life. Neither of the two died in St. Petri up to 1860.

So I think I will leave the research at that point. Once I found the separation and divorce records I will report back why Ann Elisabeth Speis and Detlef Jacob Goldt got separated.

Again many thanks to Inger and Grethe for all the energy you put into this investigative case !

Best regards from Brussels, Christina
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