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Hej

One of my ancestors was a soldier in Capt. Wilsted's company in Rensburg in the Marquis' regiment in 1741.  Is any information online about the soldiers in the company?  I want to find his birth date and place, but even his age in 1741 would be helpful.

Source, left page at top: 
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161194,27080797 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161194,27080797)

På forhånd tak.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 11 Feb 2019 - 21:43
Hej

One of my ancestors was a soldier in Capt. Wilsted's company in Rensburg in the Marquis' regiment in 1741.  Is any information online about the soldiers in the company?  I want to find his birth date and place, but even his age in 1741 would be helpful.

Source, left page at top:  
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161194,27080797 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161194,27080797)

På forhånd tak.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

So it seems that Karen Hansdatter of Bølling gets a bastard child named Søren.
As the father she names Ole Krabbe from the ?.........? Regiment, Captain Wilsted's Company.
Sadly I can't really get what the Regiment name should be here?
If it says "markgrevens regiment", then it's just whoever was chief for that regiment at that moment.

Fynske Geworbne Regiment (later 4. Bataljon): Oberst markgreve Frederik Christian af Brandenburg-Kulmbach 1734-1744.
Jyske Geworbne Regiment (later 12. Bataljon): Generalfeltmarskal markgreve Friedrich Ernst af Brandenburg-Culmbach 1728-1762.
Of those two the "Jyske Geworbne Regiment" definitely had Rendsborg as a Garrison town in 1741.

12th Bataljon actually has stambog all the back to 1730!

So the child's name should be Søren Olesen.

NB: Krabbe is a name of a noble family and in Rendsburg we find a Captain Ole Henriksen Krabbe of the Nørrejyske Nationale Infanteri Regiment. He is born in Fredrikstad in Norway in 1713 and dies in Rendsborg 27th of March 1781.
It could be that he is the father here in 1741, before he was appointed Captain and before he was married in 1751.
See: http://skeel.info/getperson.php?personID=I7403&tree=ks

12. Bataljon Stambog = Jyske Geworbne Regiment.

Capitaine von Wilsters Compagnie. [not Wilsted].
1737: Ohle Krabbe. 16 years old. Born: Jütland is enrolled.

So it is NOT the Norwegian-1713-born Ole Henriksen Krabbe, but an Ole Krabbe born ~ 1721 in Jutland.  
Source [image 156 of 920, page 480 in original]: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79PX-V?i=155&cat=416356

Hej Niels

The birth record says "Ole Krabbe, af Marg-Grafvens Regimente Capitain Wilsteds Compagnie i Rensburg."  

Thank you for the regiment information and the link to the stambog.  That is very helpful!  I did not have a birth year for my Ole Krabbe, except to guess from the birth of his first child in 1741.

It is interesting that you mention Ole Henriksen Krabbe, because I just discovered him last night on a different web site https://gw.geneanet.org/fholbek?lang=en&pz=finn+josef+skeel&nz=holbek&ocz=0&p=ole&n=krabbe+af+damsgaard&oc=2 (https://gw.geneanet.org/fholbek?lang=en&pz=finn+josef+skeel&nz=holbek&ocz=0&p=ole&n=krabbe+af+damsgaard&oc=2).  I was looking for more information about him in case he was 'my' Ole Krabbe.  There are some similarities, and differences.

I also found this last night
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17142540#185104,31312438 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17142540#185104,31312438)
but I could not find the incoming letters on AO.  They are probably from Ole Henriksen Krabbe.

I will look more at the stambog, and then try to find his birth.  Now that I know the year, I can look through churchbooks of southern Jylland until I find him.

Thank you for the replies!

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Ole Krabbe & Karen Hansdatter actually ends up getting engaged [Trolovet] in Egtved Sogn 30th of January 1744.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161195,27080943

Married [Copuleret] the 3rd of June 1744 in Egtved Sogn.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161195,27080944

He is listed both places as "Stollermann", so apparently no longer in the army in 1744?

As he was enlisted for 10 years in 1737 [Capituleret] he must have been discharged beforehand!
Yet I can't find him discharged in the Wilster-company lists, so he must have changed company within the Regiment [which is not that uncommon].  

Have you checked whether Ole Krappe & Karen Hansdatter dies in Egtved Sogn?

Because Ole Henriksen Krappe is Captain in- and dies in Rendsborg, so finding Ole Krabbe buried in Egtved rules Ole Henriksen Krabbe out 100%

PS: These letters you found must definitely be from Oluf (Ole) Henriksen Krabbe.
Ole is the "shortform" of Olof/Oluf.
As one official letter is from 1738 to the "over-war-secretary", then "your" Ole Krappe must very likely be another person as he only just enrolled in the army and being 16-17 years old....

Names of the Regiment through time:
Nye Sydjydske Regiment   1675   - 1679      
Jyske Wedelske Regiment til Fods   1679   - 1684      
Jyske Wedelske Infanteriregiment   1679   - 1684      
Jyske nationale Regiment   1684   - 1702      
Jyske Nationale Regiment under Feltmarskallen Baron Wedell 1684 - 1693      
Jyske Wedellske Nationale Regiment   1693   - 1702      
Jyske Infanteriregiment   1702   - 1715      
Jyske Regiment   1702   - 1715      
Jyske geworbne Regiment   1715   - 1780      
Jyske Regiment til Fods   1780   - 1781      
Jyske Infanteriregiment   1781   - 1790      
Fyenske Infanteriregiment   1790 - 1842      
12. Linie Infanteribataillon   1842 - 1848      
12. Lette Infanteribataillon   1848   - 1855      
12. Linie Infanteribataillon   1855 - 1860      
12. Infanteribataillon   1860 - 1863      
12. Infanteriregiment   1863 - 1865      
12. Infanteribataillon   1865 - 1867      
12. Bataillon   1867   - 1951      
ophævet [Discontinued]   1951
Source: https://www.wadschier.dk/haeren-garnisoner-regimentschefer/haer/jyske-regiment-til-fods/432

I have not been able to find the death of my Ole Krabbe.  I think he died between March 1781 and December 1784 but I don't know where.  Karen Hansdatter died in Veerst sogn, Ribe amt, in 1768.

You are probably right about the 1738 letter to the oversecretary not being from my Ole Krabbe, who was only 17 at that time.

The word stollermann is the last name Schøllermann or Skøllermand.  I have another thread about that here https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,146478.0.html (https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,146478.0.html).  I am trying to find more information about Henrik & his 3 sons in case my Ole Krabbe is related.

It has been difficult, researching in this time period before censuses and lægdsruller.

Thanks for your help.  The stambog is a great find.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 28 Feb 2019 - 21:33
I have not been able to find the death of my Ole Krabbe.  I think he died between March 1781 and December 1784 but I don't know where.  Karen Hansdatter died in Veerst sogn, Ribe amt, in 1768.

You are probably right about the 1738 letter to the oversecretary not being from my Ole Krabbe, who was only 17 at that time.

The word stollermann is the last name Schøllermann or Skøllermand.  I have another thread about that here https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,146478.0.html (https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,146478.0.html).  I am trying to find more information about Henrik & his 3 sons in case my Ole Krabbe is related.

It has been difficult, researching in this time period before censuses and lægdsruller.

Thanks for your help.  The stambog is a great find.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Offcourse  ;)
Didn't even think about that when I replied to your other thread.
I wonder in that case if it is NOT A NAME, but his occupation whatever that might be [I'm not that strong in Low German]!
In the stambog he is only "Ohle Krabbe", so Krabbe is his surname of use.

Some guesses based on the Plautdietsch Lexicon (Low German Dictionary):

Schol   [ʃoːl] n.f. Pl: Scholen. scale.

1 • Jereetschoft toom wäajen - scale.

2 • sea schoape Weedoag en Henj ooda Feet wan dee sikj rieren von een Jewauss em Jelenkj - gout; spavin.
Category: 1.6.2.2. Parts of a reptile, 1.6.2.3. Parts of a fish, 2.1.4. Skin, 4.2.3. Music, 7.2.2.4. Move up, 7.2.4.8. Map, 8.2.8. Measure.

or

Stol   [ʃtoːl] n.n. Pl: -. eene Sort Iesa - steel.
Category: 1.2.2.3. Metal, 6.6.2.3. Working with metal.

So "Scales-man" or "Steal-working man"??

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 28 Feb 2019 - 21:33
I have not been able to find the death of my Ole Krabbe.  I think he died between March 1781 and December 1784 but I don't know where.  Karen Hansdatter died in Veerst sogn, Ribe amt, in 1768.

That was pretty hard to find even when you knew the year!

Verst Sogn:
So mid left page, narrow left column. 
24. Jun [1768] jordedes Ole Skoller/Skøller-mands hustru Karen Hans[datter].
Source (p.30): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17121576#159955,26891528

It is quite interesting as Henrik Schöllermann's son Julius Henrik also died in Verst Sogn.

Ole Skollermand is not indicated as being "foreign" to the Parish priest, so while it is possible that the wife moved to Verst after her husband died [this priest doesn't ooze confidence with the kind of "page-artistry" he shows] then it does at first glance indicate that they both lived in that Parish when she died.
Normally the priests also write "afd" [afdød] if the husband was deceased at the time of the wife's death and it isn't the case here.   

Ole lived after his wifes dead.
he is godfather in 1771 for erik bertelsens daughter i Verst sogn

.

Verst sogn – døbte 1718 til 1814


1771 d. 7 jul. døbtes Erik Bertelsens søn Christen. Førtes til dåben af præstens pige Stine.
Faddere: præstens søn Peder Rubæk, Ole Skøllermand og Christen Hinnum, Anna Morten
Juhls hustru, madame Rhode,


The name Krabbe could be a nickname for the way he walked. He could have had "english decease" and therefore his leg would have been bend. mmon that the soldiers got nicknames, sometimes after the place they are born or have lived. But it s difficult to analyse why they are called this and that.

mvh
Grethe

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 01 Mar 2019 - 20:06
Ole lived after his wifes dead.
he is godfather in 1771 for erik bertelsens daughter i Verst sogn

Verst sogn – døbte 1718 til 1814

1771 d. 7 jul. døbtes Erik Bertelsens søn Christen. Førtes til dåben af præstens pige Stine.
Faddere: præstens søn Peder Rubæk, Ole Skøllermand og Christen Hinnum, Anna Morten
Juhls hustru, madame Rhode,


The name Krabbe could be a nickname for the way he walked. He could have had "english decease" and therefore his leg would have been bend. mmon that the soldiers got nicknames, sometimes after the place they are born or have lived. But it s difficult to analyse why they are called this and that.

mvh
Grethe

The nickname Krabbe would certainly be relevant for one who had Rickets (Engelsk Syge), but why on earth would he then be accepted as a professional soldier if he was disabled? People with that disease are also quite small and not exactly build for army life with all the problems associated with their disease.
They wanted tall soldiers for the professional army - how the looked was important for the Kings prestige. People with a nickname "Krabbe" would likely not look like a person they even wanted to hire as a geworben soldier?

I have an Saxon ancestors enrolled in as Geworben soldier in 1771 and he is 68,25 danish tommer (177,5 cm) which he quite higher than the male average of the time.

Also when Ole Krabbe is inscribed in the stambog he is not around people he knows and he is asked his name. Apparently most (all?) other persons in the stambog is recorded by their names, not nicknames.
Also he can't yet have gotten a "soldier-name" as he just entering as 16 years old.
Probably ran away from home shortly after his confirmation -  what you have found certainly suggests that this (brother?) was really struggling.....

So as the priest in 1741 had inscribed him as "Ole Krabbe Stollermann" I think Krabbe was his real name.
Nicknames (as occupation names) normally comes last.  

You can still be correct, that it is a nickname - I would just find it a bit unusual that it got accepted in the stambog as people had to travel, they needed with a pas from their parish-priest with their real name inscribed.  

It looks like we have a Hans Christopher Schölermann & Peter Christian Sköllermann also in von Wilsters Regiment.

Abgegangen in 1754:  
nr 1) gra [granadier] Hans Christ. ?Schölermann?
25 years old.
Born Jütland.
After 9 years of service.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79P3-W?i=169&cat=416356
&
Here he is enrolled in 1744.
Hans Christopher Scköllermann.
15 years old.
Born: aus Aal in Jütland.  [So Aal/Ål Sogn, Vester Horne Herred, Ribe Amt]
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79P3-5?i=160&cat=416356

Abgegangen in 1757:
nr 15) ?...? Peter Christian Sköllermann.
22 years old.
Born Jütland.
After 6 years and 1 month service.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79P3-Y?i=174&cat=416356
&
Here he is enrolled in 1751.
nr 15: Peter Chr. Schøllerman.
Born: Jütland.
Age 16 years.
Lutheran.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79PX-P?i=167&cat=416356

Found "your man":
Abgegangen in 1756.
nr 8 : gra [granadier] Ohle Krabbe Schölermann.
35 years old.
Born: Jütland.
After 18,5 years of service.
Source [173 of 920, nr 510 in original]
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79PX-6?i=172&cat=416356

Hej Niels

Thank you for finding more Schøllermanns in the stambøger!  I will try to follow them, in case my Ole Krabbe was born or died in the same place.  I am not on my computer much today, though.

Grethe found some mentions of Schøllermands in the Koldinghus Tingbøger.  Henrik and the son Peder had some legal troubles in the 1730s.  If Ole Krabbe is an older son of Henrik's, perhaps the legal troubles were an embarrassment, Ole left home, took a new name, and joined the army.  It is all speculation at this point.

I will follow all the leads and hopefully learn more and find more about the Schøllermanns and Ole Krabbe.

Thank you for the help!

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

hey Lisa

I am sure that Ole remarried with Anna Hansdatter and called himself Oluf Krabbe. They got children in Veerst i, 1774,1775,1777, 1779 and 1781 Look yourself.
Krabbe is e seldom name in Denmark. It is a protected name for an old noble family called Krabbe, Their mannor is Krabbeshoilm, which is situatied near Aarhus. Forst en the 19century we se family names with Krabbe, and i think that some of them comes from Ole Krabbe Skøllermand.
It could be that Henrik also was in the horse army and if Ole left him, - but he was around 17 when he joined the army- because of trouble or the father didnt want him as a soldier, he must have served in a farm someplace. But of course Krabbe could be that he is born in a parish for Krabbesholm.
I believe as you that Ole is not marked by rickets, as you say it is certain that they coulden't use men with small or damgaded bodies. i have an ancestor who became a sword-wound across his face, and his commandor writes, "we cannot use him as sargent any more, nor solider, he has lost quite a lot of his nose" "

I have looked up in Ål churchbook but hasen't found Ole born there- He sould be born around 1721, --awfully written", as many of the old books are.
grethe

Hej Grethe

Thank you again for the tingbøger information.  I found the tingbøger on AO, called justitsprotokoller, and found all the Schøllermans.  I am thankful that Johs. Lind made the extractions and put them on the internet or I would not be able to find them in the books.

Thank you for trying to find Ole Krabbe Schøllermand in the Ål church book where Hans Christopher S. was born.  I think now it was meant to be Åle sogn in Skanderborg amt, for here he was baptized in July 1722:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117)

Krabbe was the mother's name?  The church book for Åle begins in 1721, so I may not find my Ole Krabbe's baptism there.

And I found the death of Hans Christopher S. in Abild sogn near Tønder, the same death written in 2 copies of the church books:

Hans Christopher Schöllerman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, kontraministeriaibog, top left, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276)
Hans Christopher Schylleman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, hovedministerialbog, bottom right, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303)

Peter Hindrich S. was from Ohde or Ohle?  Maybe Åle?

I will look more tomorrow.

Lisa P.

Hej Lisa

Ole und Peters mother was not Margethe Krabbe. She is daughter of the noble family from the manor Bierre.
Their mother was called Ohle or Ohde and Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter . Its a courios way of writing a christian name, but she might have been called Ohle/Ohde of one or another reason.

About Ohle Krabbe Skøllermann, That he called himself for Krabbe could be for 2 reasons:
1. His middlename at the baptism was krabbe as a gestus to the noble family. Oluf/Ohle Krabbe Skøllermann,
2. Margrethe Krabbe or other of the noble family was either godmother og godfather to the boy.
Ole is not found in the churchbook.

But I think that it is very believeable that he is son of Peter Skøllerman/Schöllerman, because he takes the name Krabbe. Also if you can find a son of him with the name Peter.
The family relations to Henrik is not found yet. But I have found a Bailiff called Hendrich Skøllermann married Barbara Simonsdatteri , but unfortunately the book in which it is written is not on the net.  Its "Samfundet for dansk genealogi og personalehistorie 1910-1911 , bind 2. "
side 276 Maybe you can get someone in forum to look it up for you, I am sure that somebody has the book among us.
also Peter got a child called Mette Friederica (opslag 10) i in aale sogn churchbook
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117
Is it mentioned his occupation -I mean something with cassier?  but please let others read it. He dissappears from Aale in 1730 where he gets a son Christian, but after that no sign in the churchbook. he has known the family Worm, because they also are withnesses to Christians baptism.

Grethe

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 04 Mar 2019 - 02:34
Hej Grethe

Thank you again for the tingbøger information.  I found the tingbøger on AO, called justitsprotokoller, and found all the Schøllermans.  I am thankful that Johs. Lind made the extractions and put them on the internet or I would not be able to find them in the books.

Thank you for trying to find Ole Krabbe Schøllermand in the Ål church book where Hans Christopher S. was born.  I think now it was meant to be Åle sogn in Skanderborg amt, for here he was baptized in July 1722:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117)

Krabbe was the mother's name?  The church book for Åle begins in 1721, so I may not find my Ole Krabbe's baptism there.

And I found the death of Hans Christopher S. in Abild sogn near Tønder, the same death written in 2 copies of the church books:

Hans Christopher Schöllerman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, kontraministeriaibog, top left, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276)
Hans Christopher Schylleman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, hovedministerialbog, bottom right, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303)

Peter Hindrich S. was from Ohde or Ohle?  Maybe Åle?

I will look more tomorrow.

Lisa P.

So that is pretty interesting. Good thinking with Åle Sogn instead of Ål sogn. In dialectical speech they could both be "Ål".

"Peder Schellermann's barn...frembåren...frøken Mette Margrethe Krabbe".
So this child is carried forth by the noblewoman Mette Margrethe Krabbe (1704-1775); and her father was actually Ole Krabbe af Damsgaard til Bjerre (1656-1728). So it does seem very likely that Ole Krabbe Schöllermann was named after this Ole Krabbe!

So the question arises - is he just named after the noble family (the gestus or godfather/godmother as Grethe said), or is he a bastard son of Ole Krabbe of Damsgaard?

To save a noble family's honour, sometimes a bastard child would be raised by a servant family, who then took it in as their own.
Sadly I means it can be impossible to prove as it would not be registred in the church books, other than the child of the servant family.

If a bastard son was fathered, then mother and named father [udlagt barnefader] had to do official penance [åbenbar pønitense] in the church and that humiliation was for many worse than death [thus this law was removed in 1767, because of many suicides].
I seem to remember reading that noble families could avoid the public penance by writing to the King explaining [+ probably a lot of money helping the explanation] and getting exemption from it.

I agree with Grethe that a gestus towards the Krabbe family is probably the reason for Ole Krabbe Schöllermann's name, but just have in the back of the mind, that a bastard child is still a possibility.

About place name Ohde or Ohle:
Ohle could definitely be Åle.
There is a forest on Als today called "Ålehave" and that was spelled Ohlehauge in the 1770's.

Once again Lisa

Peter Skøllerman must have had a god job situation in Aale, since the noble family took part in his childrens baptism and also were witnesses and godmothers.  If Ole was a illigitime son of Ole Krabbe could of course be a possibility, but remember that the family took participation in at least 3 children, also that the children got names which were not standard for common farmers, Mette Fredericia, (Mette Margrethe Krabbe) ,  Hans Christoffer  (Hans Krabbe ), Øllegård Sophie Etelheit- Krabbes daughter called Ide Sophie-  Øllegård could be a hint to her mother)   
I beleive that he was a soldier with a rang maybe of captain or something likely, but he could also be one of the "private servants,  officials as i think I can read cassier as job.
.
But after his service- after 6-8 yaers - he should turn back to the common life and setlle down in Abild as Käthner/Koethner -på dansk Kådner, which means a man who copyhold or take lease of half a farm, "en halvgård" in dansih . And one can compare it with a small holder.

Also about Henrik Henriksen Skøllerman I believe he has beeen in the army, but also here they have "fallen" deeply in the social class or rank.  In denmark we use a word for the soldiers who have served as "geworben" soldier, they are called "afdankede soldater" after german abdanken. But the word afdanked also have the connotation of a person who is arm, look arm in clothes and figures, dosent have a job etc. It was a big problem because there were many geworben (professionel) soldiers, and they took all the job they could get for small money and often had no home. The Guilds tried to lock them out, and told the citysens not to take work from them. But often the soldiers had learned craft and were craftsmen in the army. 

Hej Grethe & Niels

I found the Peder Schøllermann in Nygårds Sedler, listed as Peter Schellermann.  Another spelling of the name!

http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=332384&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=332384&sort=e)

He had at least 4 children in Åle, the last in 1730.  I think that this Peder Schøllermann in Åle is the same as Henrik Schøllermand in Bække sogn, Ribe amt.  Henrik had 3 sons in Bække, Peder in 1732, Julius Henrik in 1735 and Hans Jørgen in 1739.  Perhaps the father's full name was Peder Henrik Schøllermann.  Now I think I know where Henrik Schøllermann was before Bække sogn, but I don't know where he went after 1739.

My Ole Krabbe had children named Søren, Johannes, Peder, Karen, Peder, Niels, Niels, Anne Magrete, and Ane Marie with the first wife Karen Hansdatter, and Karen Kirstine, Kirsten, Erich, Anna Maria and Maren with the second wife Anna Hansdatter.  So, Søren, Peder and Anne Magrete make sense if the parents were Peder Henrik Schøllermann and Ane Magrethe Sørensdatter.  The other names may make sense as I learn more about the family.

It is too bad that the Åle kirkebøger start in 1721.  I think the church was there before.  If I am lucky, the family moved to Åle from another parish where church books exist before 1721.

And of course I should check tingbøger or justitsprotokoller in the Åle area, in case they started criminal actions there instead of waiting until moving to Bække sogn.   ::)

Thanks for mentioning Samfundet for dansk genealogi og personalhistorie.  I found the index online and there are many with the name Krabbe.  I think some of the earliest issues are online.  https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000518944 (https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000518944)  There are some Danish books that I can get here if the books are in a library somewhere in the U.S.  John Kvist's books about Bække and Egtved are not.   :(

I will watch out for the possibility that Ole Krabbe may have been a bastard son of the noble Krabbe family.  I may not be able to prove it or disprove it, but I know I have more information to find, and with that, will come more understanding, I hope.

Thanks for all the help.  I have more research to do now!

Lisa P.

When going through the birth of the unnamed child of Peder Schellermann in September 1722 his wife should be introduced in church afterwards. Women were regarded as unclear after birth and had to be pure again for entering the church again.

1. Oktober 1722:
"gik Anne Margrethe Klein i kirke". [she went to church].
So Anne Margrethe Klein must likely be his wife;

UNLESS: the 30th of January 1723 it says:
"gik Sergeantens kone i kirke" [the Sergeant's wife went to church].

So is Peder Schellermann the Sergeant?!
No other sergeant is mentioned just before, at least what I can discern?

Jørgen Ladefoged had a child the 16th of July 1722.
- his wife went to church the 17th of September 1722.
So at least two months could pass between birth and introduction.

From September to January does seem to long a period, but it would fit a lot if Peder Schellermann was a sergeant or an ex-sergeant.

Hej Lisa and Niels

I am sure that Peter was a sergeant, but if you Niels could read what's written after the name of Mette Frideriia at her baptism, it would be  nice because I think it is something about his job. I get it to cadsierer- cassier, not sergeant. We know his wifes name and it is not the Klein- Anne Margrethe Klein is mentioned later in the churchbook and she  is married , I mean it is with the gartner (not quite sure) Peters wife is Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter surely comming from Ohle (Aale) because she is called that as nickname.  

here is the link to Mette Friederica
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713120

Hey Lisa, it could be that Henrik and Peter are brothers, but it could also be that they are cousins. We don't know for sure.
But I don't find it obviously that Henrik Henriksen Skøllermann  in Bække is the same as Peter Skøllerman in Aale. ???  Why should he change his name? only if something "awfully" has happened!.
About Ole Krabbe its a different matter, if he is baptised Ohle Krabbe Skøllermand it is understandable, and to take his godmother and -fathers name is also understandable.
And of course you have earlier mentioned that Henriks sons took the familyname Pedersen???? so it could be.........if that's right, that they did.

But that they are military people is nearly sure, also that apparently they have been of the geworben artillery -probably the family came from germany- Schleswig-holstein.

If you get the book from samfundet 1911, no. 2 i would like to hear whats written about this Bailiff Hendrich Skøllermann- he could be the father of the Henrik from Bække. - or ask here in the forum, I could do it too if you want!

greetings
Grethe

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 05 Mar 2019 - 14:17
Hej Lisa and Niels

I am sure that Peter was a sergeant, but if you Niels could read what's written after the name of Mette Frideriia at her baptism, it would be  nice because I think it is something about his job. I get it to cadsierer- cassier, not sergeant. We know his wifes name and it is not the Klein- Anne Margrethe Klein is mentioned later in the churchbook and she  is married , I mean it is with the gartner (not quite sure) Peters wife is Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter surely comming from Ohle (Aale) because she is called that as nickname.  

here is the link to Mette Friederica
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713120

If Anna Margrethe Klein is not Peter's wife - then it almost has to be the "sergeant's wife", doesn't it?
- even if 4 months is very long for introduction back in church - but she can have been very sick afterwards??

Puuh - his handwriting is not easy there.

Pretty sure with Ca - then it's really hard.
First: It is probably Cads-?
Then there is a dot over the letters later in the word, but the priest is not precise in placing them; as later the name Søren appears in the text where it has NOT the dot placed over the -o- but over the -e-.

Cadseier as perhaps what is written ?? -> french: Caissier, eng: Cashier, germ: Kassierer (like the person we have in a bank now).
- could it be the meaning of the guy collecting money from the local indentured farmers [fæstebønder] for the nobleman.
He would then be a trusted person (handling money) and probably having a military background would "help" people to fast and timely.

Other meanings of what the priest might have written:
Casserie = metal work (flattens it into pans?) -  ["La Casserie -> usine de fabrication de casserole"].
Casseur = Rioter/hooligan from casser [to break]. They just break everything, not just metal for pans!    

Rendsborg army roster 1748:

Hinrich Schölermann.
Born: Holsten. [A lot of Schölermann's from that area].
Age: 24 years.
Service: 4 years.
Regiment: Bornholmske Regiment. Compagnie Brackel.
Source (p.1564): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273029

NB: The Marine Regiment [establish in 1672 in Glückstad] was moved to Rendsborg in 1741.
Here it weirdly took the name "Bornholmske Regiment".

Vogels Marinekompagni 1672 – 1680
Marineregimentet 1680 – 1741
Bornholmske Infanteriregiment 1741 – 1785
Århusiske Infanteriregiment 1785 – 1790
1. Jyske Infanteriregiment 1790 – 1842
7. Linie Infanteri-Bataillon 1842 – 1860
7. Infanteri-Bataillon 1860 – 1863
7. Infanteri-Regiment 1863   – 1865
7. Infanteri-Bataillon 1865 – 1867
7. Bataillon 1867– 1951-11-01
Marineregimentet 1951-11-01 – 2000-06-30

Rendsborg army roster 1742:
Ohle Krabbe Schoelermann.
Tømmermand.
Home: Jylland.
Age: 20,5 years.
Service: 4,5 years.
Unmarried.
Lutheran.
Jyske [Geworbne] Infanteri Regiment.
Kaptajn Wilsters Compagnie.  
Source (p.1811): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273276
&
Rendsborg Army Roster 1748.
Ohle Krabbe Scköllermann.
Born: Jylland.
?granadier?
Age: 26,5 years.
Service: 10,5 years.
Jyske [Geworbne Infanteri] Regiment.
Wilsters Compagnie.
Source (p. 1849): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273314

Rendsborg Army Roster 1748.
Hans Christoph[er] Scköllermann.
Born: Jylland.
?menig?
Age: 19 years.
Service: 4,5 years.
Jyske [Geworbne Infanteri] Regiment.
Wilsters Compagnie.
Source (p. 1848): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273313

Hej Lisa and Niels

I have to look once more in the -ugly - written churchbook, because the forname Ann Margrethe is the same -and it could easely be Klein Sørensdatter. I have in this case certainly learnt something about names, so I wouldn't be "überrasched" if Anne Margrethe Klein and Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter is the same. But then I have to see if Klein is linked to another man, when she is introduced.  Also who is then the sergants wife.....

Thanks for that with Cadsierer. Peter ends as Kådner in a little half farm in Abild- could he have fallen in disgrace, or was it common that the geworben soldiers after their service only became small holders if they didn't want to stay in the big cities. One of my early ancestors who let himself be geworben had enough money to boy a farm, and the lord supported him and helped him to find a suitable farm (of his own inheritage of course). He finished his service after 8 years in 1790 

Grethe

Hej Grethe

The man in the Bække KB was called Henrich Schøllermann, the man in the Koldinghus tingbøger was called Peter Henriksen Schøllerman, and the man in the Åle KB was Peter Schøllerman.  I think they are all one, Peter Henrik/Henriksen Schøllermann, because 1) the one in Åle stopped being mentioned in the KB about the same time the one in Bække had his 3 sons, 2) the youngest sons Julius and Hans used the last name Pedersen, at least sometimes.  Yes they could be brothers or cousins and I will keep that possibility in mind as I look for more information.

I found someone extracted names from the Åle KB.  Yay!  This way, the names Schøllerman and Krabbe are easy to see, but there aren't many of them.
http://www.milloup.dk/bf/aale-torring/aale-1721.htm (http://www.milloup.dk/bf/aale-torring/aale-1721.htm)

I am not sure about Anne Margrete Klein.  I am a little disappointed that the Åle KB do not give the name of Peter S.'s wife.  The death of Hans Christopher S. in Abild is helpful, so I need to find death records of the other children, and the parents too.

I also think the Peter Schøllerman in Åle was military.


Hej Niels

Thank you for the links to more Schøllermans in the military.  How do you know where to find these?    ???

And how would I find Peter Schøllerman, if he was in the military and I don't know the regiment or company?  

The Mette Margrete Krabbe from Åle married kaptajn Christopher Friderich von Ingenhoff in 1729.  How would I find him in the stambøger?  He is in Nygaards Sedler

http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171193&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171193&sort=e)
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171194&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171194&sort=e)  bagside
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171189&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171189&sort=e)

Thank you both for all your help with this.  It has been very interesting for me to work in this time before censuses and lægdsruller!

Lisa P.

Hej Lisa

I think Niels is reight Anne Margrethe Klein and Anna Margrethe Sørensdatter called Ohle is the same person. I have looked through Aale churchbook and she is very often godmother but 1731 is the last time she is mentioned and so is her husband Peter Schøllerman  too, so I believe that she is the same person.   

And also I think you are right about the Henrik Henriksen Skøller and Peter (Henrik) Skøllerman, that they are the same person. But it is very bevildered that the names are not firm -at least a little more than we see here.

What about the book from 1911 bind 2?

Grethe

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 05 Mar 2019 - 19:33
The Mette Margrete Krabbe from Åle married kaptajn Christopher Friderich von Ingenhoff in 1729.  How would I find him in the stambøger?  He is in Nygaards Sedler

http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171193&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171193&sort=e)
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171194&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171194&sort=e)  bagside
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171189&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171189&sort=e)

Thank you both for all your help with this.  It has been very interesting for me to work in this time before censuses and lægdsruller!

Lisa P.

Hi Lisa.
Yeah it is very difficult if people are not stationary and people moved around surprisingly a lot in the 1700 hundreds!

Luckily from my own family research I have no some familiarity with the military sources and I found an extensive file in
Hirsch's index of Christopher Friedrich Ingenhaven (aka Ingenhoff).

Left page:
Died in Fredericia as the last man of his line the 27th of February 1781 (buried 6th of March).
Married 13th of December 1729 Mette Margrethe Krabbe from Bjerre (14/5 1704 - 7/4 1775) - Daughter of Ole Krabbe and 2nd wife Ida Sofie Gjedde.

Anne Cathrine ?Beuthach? [other sources Benthagen] - her nickname was Støvletkatrine ["Boots-Cathrine", modern Danish: Støvle-Katrine].
- probably a daughter of Prince Georg Ludvig of Braunschweig-Lüneburg [should be Braunschweig-Bervern]
- can't read the next word?
- she was raised in his house [the Prince or Ingenhoff's?] in her first child years (Letters of Dorothea Biehl named as source)
NB: or was Støvletkatrine a mistress also of von Ingenhoff at some point [Hirsch's text is unclear here].  

Støvletkatrine (1745 - 1805) was a VERY famous prostitute, who ended up becoming mistress to King Christian VII.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%B8vlet-Cathrine
She was the illegitimate child of her godfather [hint: thus also possible for Ohle Krabbe Schöllermann]

Right page and the next pages:
Christoffer Fredrich [Ingenhaven/Ingenhoff].
Son af Georg Johan Peter [Ingenhaven] & Øllegaard Rantzau.
Born in Svinninge 15th of January 1703 [Svinninge is on Sjælland].
Land-cadet: 18th of May 1714.
Deserted (!): 1st of March 1720.
Fænrik in Jyske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment. 8th of April 1722 [same regiment as Ohle Krabbe Schöllermann was in from 1737!].
Captain in Aalborg with Nationale Infanteri Regiment 22nd of November 1728
In Drabantgarden 1/5 1731.
Captain in Nørrejyske Nationale Infanteri Regiment. 11th of February 1733.
Major 12th of February 1737.
Brigade-Major in Hannover (in English service) after 4th of March 1741.
Oberstløjtnant [Lieutenant-colonel] Sjællandske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment: 3rd of April 1744.
Oberst (Colonel) and Chief for Sydjyske Nationale Infanteri Regiment 18th of July 1753. (buys out Oberst Banner Kaas for 300 rigsdaler).
Generalmajor: 22nd of April 1761.
Pension: 16th of October 1763. 800 rigsdaler.
White Knight: 1769.
Kommandant of Fredriksten. 14th of February 1770.
Kommandant of Akershus and General-løjtnant. 4th of September 1772.
Kommandant in Fredericia. 13th of January 1773.
Out of Service: 9th of June 1780 because of health-problems.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198758,37662217
& https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Frederik_Ingenhaeff

His male-officer-family-members you will find on the next pages of Hirsch's index.

Edit: Christian Frederik Ingenhaven was son of Generalmajor Johan Peter Ingenhaven/Ingenhaeff (died 1717).
Source: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Peter_von_Ingenhaeff

According to the Danish wiki page on Støvletkatrine she was send into the care of a regimental oberst (who received money) after she was baptised. When she was three years old the father the Prince died and she was then send to her mother.
So since Christian Frederik Ingenhaven was a oberstløjtnant in that period he is likely her fosterfather for those three years!

The Prince actually married his mistress (Anne Marie Schrøder) to one of his soldiers (Johan Ernst Benthagen) as it was custom....
Anna Kathrine (støvletkatrine)'s surname thus became Benthagen.

So it is possible that Anne Margrethe Sørensdatter Klein could have been a mistress of Ole Krabbe?

Then Anne Margrethe was married of to soldier Peder Schöllermann and the son given the name Ohle Krabbe Schöllermann.
After that possible sacrifice the Schöllermann family was really in very good standing with the Krabbe family as they keep the secret (furthermore they (or only he?) weren't local - they might just have appeared in the parish in 1721 with a young baby).
So it could explain why so many Krabbe family members are godfathers and godmothers for the Schöllermann children?

PS: Baptism of Mette Fredericia Schöllermann in 1727.
Løjtnant Ingenhaef is named just after Mette Margrethe Krabbe [so they already knew each other before married in 1729].
In 1728 he becomes a Captain.

That Anne Margrethe Klein should have been etatsråd Krabbes mistress I find plausibel. Krabbe dies in 1728 - 71 years old.
If he is the father, and it is one of his sons who have mede an illigitime son, I don't know because I am not sure it is Ole Krabbe who dies here.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713123

But it could explain the Skøllermanns depart from Aale to Bække, also their apparently poorness .

And Lisa you know were the family went to, to Abild in Tønder.  When Hans Christopher died in 1796- se that- it is written that Peter Henrik comes from Ohle (its not a call name for Ann Margrethe- I mistook)  and is Kådner. In the one- which is hard to read, I think there stands that Peter Henrik Skøllerman is Witve- it means that he still lives.
Try to get it translated- also the place where Hans Christopher lives -in the one I think it says Swilde.but....

Citat
Hans Christopher Schöllerman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, kontraministeriaibog, top left, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276
Hans Christopher Schylleman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, hovedministerialbog, bottom right, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303

greetings Grethe

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 06 Mar 2019 - 15:24
That Anne Margrethe Klein should have been etatsråd Krabbes mistress I find plausibel. Krabbe dies in 1728 - 71 years old.
If he is the father, and it is one of his sons who have mede an illigitime son, I don't know because I am not sure it is Ole Krabbe who dies here.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713123

But it could explain the Skøllermanns depart from Aale to Bække, also their apparently poorness .

And Lisa you know were the family went to, to Abild in Tønder.  When Hans Christopher died in 1796- se that- it is written that Peter Henrik comes from Ohle (its not a call name for Ann Margrethe- I mistook)  and is Kådner. In the one- which is hard to read, I think there stands that Peter Henrik Skøllerman is Witve- it means that he still lives.
Try to get it translated- also the place where Hans Christopher lives -in the one I think it says Swilde.but....

Citat
Hans Christopher Schöllerman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, kontraministeriaibog, top left, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276
Hans Christopher Schylleman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, hovedministerialbog, bottom right, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303

greetings Grethe

Where Hans Christopher lives is so hard to read.

I found an old  discussion where Swilde was a misreading for Smilde.
Smilde Parish is in Drenthe province in the Netherlands.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilde

Not that it makes any sense that he should be buried in Abild Sogn then?
Can't find any place name fitting Swilde or Smilde in "Tønder, Højer og Lø Herred".

There are some weird splotches "under and over" the letter following the S-.
Is this a weird attempt for writing a -t-.
If the place name is Stilde -> there actually is a Stilde Å in Brørup Sogn, Malt Herred, Ribe Amt.
It run between Lindknud and Brørup.
See: https://map.krak.dk/?c=55.521051,9.008789&z=13&q=%22stilde%20%C3%A5%22;geo

That is still sort of the right area.

Hej Lisa and Niels


I have tried to read where Hans Christophers lives in Abild. He and his wife have several times been to confession (opslag 287, 294,298, 306)
in the church, and I have read as Thwild, Twild, Trild, Frild Thwild , in the map here I have found possible local names: Tyvse, Göl, Hvirl å, , Twedt and Trilde - in German and Søndejysk (or plattdeutsch) they are spelled and said different. I myselv beleive it is Trilde.

But maybe some-one other can read it better than I in the churchbook.

About the dead of Peter Henrik Skøllerman, Henrik Henriksen Skøllerman, It is difficult because , if he still lives in Bække, Asbo the priest there has noted the dead persons in the margin and they are very bad written and therefore to to read also the often are spoiled.

https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=lkaPreussiske&id=8362

greetings Grethe

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 07 Mar 2019 - 13:31
Hej Lisa and Niels


I have tried to read where Hans Christophers lives in Abild. He and his wife have several times been to confession (opslag 287, 294,298, 306)
in the church, and I have read as Thwild, Twild, Trild, Frild Thwild , in the map here I have found possible local names: Tyvse, Göl, Hvirl å, , Twedt and Trilde - in German and Søndejysk (or plattdeutsch) they are spelled and said different. I myselv beleive it is Trilde.

But maybe some-one other can read it better than I in the churchbook.

About the dead of Peter Henrik Skøllerman, Henrik Henriksen Skøllerman, It is difficult because , if he still lives in Bække, Asbo the priest there has noted the dead persons in the margin and they are very bad written and therefore to to read also the often are spoiled.

https://hkpn.gst.dk/mapviewer.aspx?type=lkaPreussiske&id=8362

greetings Grethe

There is a Tvile spelled as Twilde in 1688.
It is in Åstrup Sogn, Gørding Herred, Ribe Amt.

If Trilde then there is actually one in Abild Sogn and close by is a Trilde Toft!
So I think you are right here, that this is what is written.
It lies (or rather was) between Travsted and Adelvad.

"Subst. ænyda. trille,,rund Skive". Ordet forekommer flere Gange i sønderjy. Marknavne, sikkert sigtende til Arealernes Form, samt som Navn paa adskillige Grunde og Smaaøer".
Kilde: Danske stednavne.

I have not had much time yesterday or today to do family research, but I am trying to catch up. 

Today I found more information on the Hans Christopher Schøllermann who died in Abild sogn in 1796.  He was from Trelde near Fredericia.  If he was 78.5 years old when he died, then he was born about Sept. 1717.  I don’t know where he was between 1717 and 1755.  From 1755 to 1765 he was in Løgumkloster where 3 of his children were born.  His 4th child was born in Abild in 1765.  Three of the children married.  His wife Maria died in 1789 in Tønder, and he died in 1796 in Abild.

The Hans Christopher Schøllermann that Niels found in Wilster’s Company was from Åle, and age 15 in 1744 and age 25 in 1754, so born about 1729.  I found a H.C.S. born in Åle in 1724.  The year is not quite right to be either the one in Wilster’s Company or the one who died in Abild.

The Peter Christian Schøllermann in Wilster’s Company died in Burkal sogn near Tønder in June 1757 age 24.  That would make him the right age to be born in Bække sogn in 1732, a son of Henrik Schøllermann.  P.C.S. was married in Burkal sogn in 1756.  His only child was named Ann Margrethe.

Tomorrow I will look in Fredericia Trinitatis to see if there are any Schøllermanns from Trelde.  It’s funny that my family and I stayed in a very nice B&B in Trelde in 2017 while we visited Fredericia!

Grethe, I will search through the Personalhistorisk Tidsskrift name index tonight.  There is the Hendrich Skøllermand who married Barbara Simonsdatter in 1911:276, and a Henrich Schøllermand who married Kirsten Jacobsdatter in 1914:116.  Those 2 are the only Skøllermanns.  I will look for some other family names and then maybe ask for a lookup if I can’t get it online.

More to do tomorrow, and rain will keep me indoors. 

Many thanks for your help as I work on these relatives.

Lisa P.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 08 Mar 2019 - 03:28

Today I found more information on the Hans Christopher Schøllermann who died in Abild sogn in 1796.  He was from Trelde near Fredericia.  If he was 78.5 years old when he died, then he was born about Sept. 1717.  I don't know where he was between 1717 and 1755.  From 1755 to 1765 he was in Løgumkloster where 3 of his children were born.  His 4th child was born in Abild in 1765.  Three of the children married.  His wife Maria died in 1789 in Tønder, and he died in 1796 in Abild.

Tomorrow I will look in Fredericia Trinitatis to see if there are any Schøllermanns from Trelde.  It's funny that my family and I stayed in a very nice B&B in Trelde in 2017 while we visited Fredericia!

So Trelde in Vejlby Sogn was probably meant then. Vejlby only have church-books from 1814.
Before 1814 it seems that church-book information from that region could be under Fredericia Trinitatis.

Fredericia war a garrison town and in the period 1679-1729 units of "Fynske Geworbne Regiment til fods" [Bataljon 4] were placed in the town. Sadly it only have stambøger preserved from 1758.

I checked the Borgerskabsliste for Fredericia 1670-1844, but no Schöllermann (or variants there of). 

Fredericia also both had a French- and a German Reformed congregation, each with their own church book.
The german reformed church book is not online anywhere as far as I know.
The French one has entries from 1722; but contains no Schöllermann until 1730.

Fredericia also had a catholic congregation (Sankt Knud): That church book is not online either.

So if you don't find any Schöllermann in Frederica Trinitatis, it is theoretically possible that an early Schöllermann could have been reformed or catholic. Probably a professional soldier...if we think about the family history.

I've had some time on the computer this weekend. 

I did not find any Schøllermans in Fredericia Trinitatis or Michaelis, ca 1715-1722.  I also did not see anyone from Trelde, so I might look for other parishes nearby with early churchbooks. 

I looked at all the Schøllermans in Åle sogn, and some of the Krabbes also.  Unfortunately the Åle KB start in July 1721 and there is nothing earlier than that.  Peter Schillerman first appears in the Åle churchbook on 1 Oct 1722, last appears on 3 Dec 1730, and in those 8 years, he had 4 children and was a sponsor for 3 children.  His wife's name is not given.  It could be Anne Margrete Klein, so I followed her.  She first appears on 21 Jul 1721 and last on 17 Jul 1731, and in those 10 years, she carried, held or was sponsor for 12 children.  The long time between the birth of her child and her introduction in church in 1724 happened to other mothers at that time of year.  So maybe the pastor was away in September when her 6 weeks time was up.  There was an Adelheit Klein buried in Åle on 20 Apr 1727 that could be a relative, no age was given.  Sometimes Mette Margrete Krabbe is a sponsor for a child of Peter Schillerman, but Peter and A.M. Klein are never sponsors for any Krabbe children.  If my Ole Krabbe Schøllerman was born in Åle, it was before the churchbooks begin.  Maybe he was named in honor of Ole Krabbe, and maybe he was his bastard son. 

Grethe,
Since you said the burials in Bække sogn KB are very dark and hard to read, I looked again to see if I could read anything.  The images on familysearch are a little better.  I did not find any Schøllermans, but I also noticed that there is a gap in the burials from 1741 to 1755.  So they could have died in Bække during that time.  Veerst sogn with the same pastor has the same gap in burials.  I guess there were burials done in Bække during those years but the church book is missing now.

The Personalhistorisk Tidsskrift for the 2 Henrich Schøllermanns are online at https://tidsskrift.dk/personalhistorisk_tidsskrift/issue/archive (https://tidsskrift.dk/personalhistorisk_tidsskrift/issue/archive).  They were marriages in 1667 and 1672 in the Sjællandsk Register, listed in Uddrag af Kancelliets Registranter ang. Vielser, Daab og Begravelser, 1660-70 and 1670-75.

And thank you for finding Hans Christopher S. in the Abild sogn confessions.   I do think the place is Trelde by Egeskov north of Fredericia.  The best source was from the death of his wife who came from the same place, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217394#202766,38442063 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217394#202766,38442063)

Niels,
Thank you for the Schøllermanns in the Rendsborg army roster.  These Rendsborg army rosters are different from the 12. Bataillon stambøger?  Are the rosters online?  The stambøger have had useful information and I want to look for more.  Maybe I can find the father, Peter or Henrich Schøllerman.

I am starting to run out of good ideas!

Thanks,

Lisa P.

Hej Lisa

I also looked in the Personalihistorisk tidskrift, and the link to the original maerial is Sjællandske Register book no. 3, for Hendrik and Kirstens marriage in 1672, and Sjællandske register book nr. 296, for hendrich and birgittes marriage in 1668, u.Tr and L -uden trolovelse og lysning, without  Betrothal and clearing for marriage.

Hendrik  must have been employed by the King in aalholm, where he is a bailiff, dansk ridefoged in aalholm amt. could be aalholm Slot 8castle), He has then asked the king allowance to marry. There are 2 reasons for that either emplyment, being in the army or being close familiar to each other.  In those cases one had to ask the King permission to marriage.

The sjællandske register is a register over different matters and in that register are written where to original papers are situared. I mean it is online. but as you can see there are several books and it is listed after name and date.

Skøllermand, Schöllermann etc. is a very rare name in Denmark, so I think that this ridefoged Hendrich is the forfather for you ancestors.


About Peter Christipher, when his wife dies it says that he comes from Emmeriche!!!, so he must have been there before he moved to Abild, because he is not born there as you already know.  <Also they call him a "colonist", which was the name they gave the germans who were invited up here to agriculture the Heide (Moors)......!

Of course the noble family didn't want common mebers of the society to be fathers/Whitnesses   for their children. But here is Johan Hendriks contrtact with Ole Krabbe over his house in Aale -right side mid
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=329818#329818,66350313l

By the way Lisa do you speak and read/write danish!!

To have more information now is more difficult but the "jordebøger" can help , I don't know if Bierre where the Krabbes lived has a manor and they have kept the books. Also help would be if any of the Skøllermans have bought houses, earth/soil or have had an auction, then there will be material to find.

Grethe

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 11 Mar 2019 - 16:36
Hendrik  must have been employed by the King in aalholm, where he is a bailiff, dansk ridefoged in aalholm amt. could be aalholm Slot 8castle), He has then asked the king allowance to marry. There are 2 reasons for that either emplyment, being in the army or being close familiar to each other.  In those cases one had to ask the King permission to marriage.

The sjællandske register is a register over different matters and in that register are written where to original papers are situared. I mean it is online. but as you can see there are several books and it is listed after name and date.

Skøllermand, Schöllermann etc. is a very rare name in Denmark, so I think that this ridefoged Hendrich is the forfather for you ancestors.

Thank you for this additional information.   I agree that Schøllermann is a rare name in Denmark, and that the Henrichs in P.T. may be my ancestors.  Maybe I could trace those 2 Henrichs forward to see what happened to them.  I will add that to my list of things to do.

Citat
About Peter Christipher, when his wife dies it says that he comes from Emmeriche!!!, so he must have been there before he moved to Abild, because he is not born there as you already know.  <Also they call him a "colonist", which was the name they gave the germans who were invited up here to agriculture the Heide (Moors)......!

There is a village northeast of Tønder called Emmerschede, and that's where I thought he lived.  Was 'Colonist' used for settlers before the potato Germans?  Hans Christopher S. was born in Trelde ca 1717 (or was he born in Åle in 1724?).

Citat
But here is Johan Hendriks contrtact with Ole Krabbe over his house in Aale -right side mid
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=329818#329818,66350313

Oh that is exciting, thank you for finding that!  Most of the people were from Åle.  So his name was Johan Pieter Sköllermand.  Maybe Henrich Schøllermand in Bække was a different person after all.

I don't 'speak' Danish, but I learned to read and write it enough to send emails and read websites, books, newspapers.  I'm not very good, but knowing some means I am happy to look at records on AO, page by page if there is no index, and I try to transcribe and understand what I find.

So far, for each place my Schøllermanns lived, I have searched AO for the parish, herred and amt and looked for records from the right time.  I'm not sure what else I should look for.  Are the jordebøger under godser?  I have not tried that.

Thank you so much!

Lisa P.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781
Niels,
Thank you for the Schøllermanns in the Rendsborg army roster.  These Rendsborg army rosters are different from the 12. Bataillon stambøger?  Are the rosters online?  The stambøger have had useful information and I want to look for more.  Maybe I can find the father, Peter or Henrich Schøllerman.

I am starting to run out of good ideas!

Thanks,

Lisa P.

Hi Lisa.

The army roster of Rendsborg (1736-1748) lists several army units stationed there in mostly 1748.
The index cards of the rosters are online here: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/index-creator/81/17133051/17022214
The rosters themselves are not online.
The roster list from daisy for ordering to view in person at Rigsarkivet: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/fysiske_enheder_liste?a=rendsborg&b=m%C3%B8nstring&c=&d=1700&e=1850&f=&g=&h=&ngid=&ngnid=&heid=5043512&henid=5043512&epid=5043512&faid=11&meid=&m2rid=&side=1&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

It seems that this garrison roster is a fairly unique preservation.

Otherwise you don't have a lot of stambøger from earlier than the 1760's.
12th Battalion is very special of going back to 1730.
Of other infantry regiments, seemingly only Viborgske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment (discontinued in 1789) has stambøger even further back to 1716.
Otherwise it is only some cavalry regiments that have stambøger preserved that far back in time - some from even the 1600's; of those the Kyradser Regiments (breastplate armoured cavalry) are not yet put online by family search.

Se family search's lists of Danish army "stambøger": https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/416356?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Other documents for Jyske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment (12. Bataljon) are listed here on daisy [none of these online].
See: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivskabers_arkivserier?a=Jyske+geworbne+Regiment&b=&c=&d=1&e=2019&f=&g=&h=&ngid=1231092&ngnid=3188854&heid=&henid=&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

So the judicial protocols for the regiments are first preserved from 1750 as the earliest.

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814
About Peter Christipher, when his wife dies it says that he comes from Emmeriche!!!, so he must have been there before he moved to Abild, because he is not born there as you already know.  <Also they call him a "colonist", which was the name they gave the germans who were invited up here to agriculture the Heide (Moors)......!

Of course the noble family didn't want common mebers of the society to be fathers/Whitnesses   for their children. But here is Johan Hendriks contrtact with Ole Krabbe over his house in Aale -right side mid
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=329818#329818,66350313l

Hi Grethe.
What great finds - [while I have experience in military rolls I actually never really tried these kind of documents, since I generally can't read the handwriting]

About the contract doesn't it say Johan Pieter Schöllermann, skræder.
The line just below seems to say "Aalle Bye" (Åle) ?...? Wolgas? [Wolgast ?]

Wolgast is a town in Vorpommern-Greifswald.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolgast

So since you can read these texts much better than I - could this be his place of origin?

EDIT: Doesn't it say "Colonisten Hans Christopher Schöllermann auf Emmersche" [and not Emmeriche, which is Emmeriche-am-Rhein in Kleves].
See: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217394#202766,38442063

In Tønder, Højer and Lø Herred, there was a special Emmerske Sogn for the villages Lille Emmerske & Store Emmerske.
See: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmerske_Sogn
Seems to also be called Tønder Landsogn.
See: https://historiskatlas.dk/@54.9556670,8.9151800,16z

They were proud of NOT speaking German and had their service in Danish, while the people of Tønder had service in German.
"Emmerske Bedehus", where they had their service, was from 1730.
See: https://www.dengang.dk/artikler/2502

Seems they were written in the same church book as Tønder Sogn.

Hej Lisa
You are right it is in Emmerske sogn near Tønder, as the churchbooks they use are Tønders. So just another search in a churchbook. 

I send you a translaten and transcription of the Leasing contract between Krabbe and Skøllermand, As it is in 1719 i beleive that it is Hendrichs father who have rent that house. But when Hendrich came in the army he also became a kind of private servant or private guard for Ole Krabbe, and then maybe his wife has had an affair -maybe not with Ole!!!- maybe with one of Oles Sons, or became pregnant against her will. .........

As you can see Krabbe owns more manors, try to see in familysearch if the manors are in the lists there-it could be.

I cant find the word "skrædder" in the text??? - No Johan Pieter is either:

1. an geworben soldier- professionel soldier - who has served his time out- and then setlled down in a nearby parish - to his former regiment.
2. A "poor", copyholder, who rents a house at Aale, by Krabbe - 1719 was an awfully year, because Denmark was in war with the Swedish- and so was northern germany also - "den store nordiske krig". And he could be a man who had fled from his home (in Germany) to Denmark. The swedish soldiers where cruel, and took everything, burnt the rest.  This war went on from 1700-1720, and the swedish soldiers walked or ravaged the whole baltic sea cost -Polen and Northgermany to come to Denmark.  And for Ole Krabbe was it necessary to rent all his houses, because a lot, an lot of farms and houses stodd empty because of the war. The swedish went high up in Jylland.


I don't  undestand why they call Hans Christopher, Colonist, but I wil try to look for it. I think there are som juristic rules, maybe oit is, that a colonist belongs directly to the King and is not under some nobleman. But I don't know.

Grethe

Hej Niels

I did look more at the army rosters, at all the Sch- and Sk- names in case there were misspellings like Schillerman, but found no one besides what you already found.  I did find a surprise, though, a Samuel Schweckheimer from a small town near Heidelberg, Germany, where my mother's grandparents were from.  I recognized the name and place easily, but he is not related to me.

I am looking at the stambøger today.  The 12th batallion takes the prize for the earliest stambog, 1730. 

Thanks for the daisy links but I don't think I'll pursue those now.


Hej Grethe

Thank you for the fæsteprotokol transcription and translation!  Very helpful.  I will search for the godser, if there are any records of them for the right time.

Also thanks for the information about the Swedish invasion, 1700-1720.  That war might explain why Peter Schøllermann's sons enlisted in the military when they became of age.


I appreciate all your help!

Lisa P.

HEJ Lisa

Johan Pieter Schøllermand: Oluf Krabbes clerck writes his forname  in "dutch" or "frisisk" that is a dialekt in the north of the dutch and german coast district Friesland. Så he might come from Holland or Germany.  When the great nordic war ended Denmark had a lot of the swedish soldiers in captivation and they should home, but as we both had lost a lot of our own soldiers and also of younger men, the king wanted, that all of the god and healthy young men who wanted to stay in Denmark either as soldiers or to settle down as farmers, citisens etc. should be welcome. And they suceeded of getting many soldiers -both professionels (geworben) and recruited (inrolled) - from 1715 one speaks about over 150.000 captivated soldiers and their officers staying in Denmark.  They were accomodated in the bigger cities in Jylland, but also in the countryside. And they should "own their own bread" they should work. Many noble families also saw a possibility to get new workforce to the mannors.
So Johan Pieter - (maybe later became Hans Peter in danish) could easily be either a professionel soldier from the swedish army or a professionel soldier from the danish or sachsish- who fought with the danish in the war.  Remember that at that time most of the armies were professionels that is leased soldiers.

About the word  "colonist" and the meaning. During the war with the swedish we also had the plague (Spanske syge), the army also brought that desease  to Denmark- and Germany etc. - so a lot of people died at that time by the Plague. Because of that, hunger, bad harvest, and the armies harvesting, there were a lot of empty farms and villages in Denmark, but sometimes the foreigners didn't want to be a serf- as all danish men were at that time - so if they should stay they wanted a ground/land free of the obligations from the mannor.
So a colonist at that time is a man who get a free landpiece - except of paying taxes of course, - and build his own house on the ground. Some of the  noblefamilies thought that this was a god idea and as the king had more land overall in Jylland also he sold land to the foreigners. Also he would like to have the Dutch from the "AlteLand" - a part in Germany, where dutch families had settled down and had make god farming- and growing of vegetables in that district, so he tried to do the same with his selfowned land(ground,) . And then in 1759 the idea began that we could invite them up here, so it became more structured.


The Skøllermann's in the south of Jylland are all poor people, so I have a litlle doubt, that they should be in family with the bailif Hendrich Skøllerman in Aalholm, but of course he could have had many sons (and daughters) and therefore he let them be recruited in the army- or as he had not land for them, they did it themselves. Hendrich is also a dutch/frisisk name

NB:  It could also be that Oluf Krabbes clerk was a dutchman and therefore he spelled Skøllermands name in dutch- but i doubt that.

Grethe   

Hej igen Lisa

I place here the applyment for copulation from Barbara Simonsdatters father to Henrich Schøllerman in aalholm. Her fathers name is Mickel Mickelsen Skomager (schumacher) . They got allowance to be married in his house. Also his marriage with Kirsten Jacobsdatter is allowed to be married in the house not the church. The letter from Skøllermand acc. Kirsten is not present only the kings allowance

maybe he was calvinist from Holland?

I cannot read it, but think it is something about money.

But you can try to get it translated, it is written in odl dansih and also with the 16th century's letters.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=19981271#272352,51935677

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=19981252#272310,51920203

Also I went through Nyhsted Kirkebøger 1647-1722 where the hendrich skøllermann (Schøllermann) lived

Here are the result.

he married Barbara Simonsdaughter in 1667 an got.
Friederich in 1668 - opslag 123 no. 3rd from down  - I can't read whats written at the at the line over last word -it could be Hendrich
Sophie Amalie 1669 - opslag 132
Simon 1671 - opslag 138
Then Barbara dies- not found dead, and he marry Kisten jacobsdatter
Peder 1673  opslag 150
Barbara 1674 - opslag 155
Johan  1676 - opslag 162
Ide Øllergaard - i think there are 2 daughters with that name - the first must have died - opslag 165 and 176
and no more children

Hendrich became Zholder (Tolder) in Nysted - costum officer. opslag 197 midt i

Kirsten died in 1710 11 july, opslag 398
I haven't found Hendrich dead. but the deadlist only begins in 1706, so he could have died before that.


But both Peder and Johan could have been the skøllermanns in sønderjylland, does it fits with the ages at those 2 children Johan Pieter and Henrik Peder

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 12 Mar 2019 - 18:37
Hej Niels

I did look more at the army rosters, at all the Sch- and Sk- names in case there were misspellings like Schillerman, but found no one besides what you already found.  I did find a surprise, though, a Samuel Schweckheimer from a small town near Heidelberg, Germany, where my mother's grandparents were from.  I recognized the name and place easily, but he is not related to me.

I am looking at the stambøger today.  The 12th batallion takes the prize for the earliest stambog, 1730. 

Thanks for the daisy links but I don't think I'll pursue those now.

Lisa P.

Hi Lisa.

I checked also the stambog of Viborgske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment as it was formerly Holstenske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment (between 1735-1785).
No Schöllermann's sadly.

Schweckheimer is certainly an unusual name - as even from the same town as your great-grandparents.

So I searched on the name and found this:

"Schwagheimer/Schweckheimer, Marx/Mareks, 35 (1760), Einw., ev. luth., aus Württemberg. Familie (Mai 1760): Ehefrau (Anna Barbara und 4 Kinder. Ankunft in Fridericia (Jütland/DK) am 25. Mai 1760. Im Dez. 1760: Kolonie J9 ,,Molkenberg", Amt Coldinghuus. Am 9. Sept. 1763: Kolonie J8 ,,Friderichshaab", Amt Coldinghuus. Letztes Verzeichnis in Dänemark am 27. März 1764. Nach Russland ausgewandert. Ankunft in Kronstadt bei Sankt Petersburg mit dem Schiffer Reders aus Lübeck am 18. Mai 17661. Hat 17. Aug. 1766 den Kolonistenvertrag für die Kolonie ,,Hirschenhof" Livland (Lettland) in Oranienbaum unterschrieben."
Source: https://deutsche-kolonisten.de/ansiedlung-deutscher-in-russland/livland-hirschenhof-und-helffreichshof/kolonisten-hirschenhof-1766/
- in the lists you will see other colony numbers.

A Marx/Mareks Schwackheimer that came to Denmark in 1760....
and from 1760-1763 at a "colony" J9 "Molkenberg" & J8 "Friederichshaab" in Koldinghus Amt.
(When we were speaking of colonists).

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 13 Mar 2019 - 13:37
HEJ Lisa

Johan Pieter Schøllermand: Oluf Krabbes clerck writes his forname  in "dutch" or "frisisk" that is a dialekt in the north of the dutch and german coast district Friesland. Så he might come from Holland or Germany.  When the great nordic war ended Denmark had a lot of the swedish soldiers in captivation and they should home, but as we both had lost a lot of our own soldiers and also of younger men, the king wanted, that all of the god and healthy young men who wanted to stay in Denmark either as soldiers or to settle down as farmers, citisens etc. should be welcome. And they suceeded of getting many soldiers -both professionels (geworben) and recruited (inrolled) - from 1715 one speaks about over 150.000 captivated soldiers and their officers staying in Denmark.  They were accomodated in the bigger cities in Jylland, but also in the countryside. And they should "own their own bread" they should work. Many noble families also saw a possibility to get new workforce to the mannors.
So Johan Pieter - (maybe later became Hans Peter in danish) could easily be either a professionel soldier from the swedish army or a professionel soldier from the danish or sachsish- who fought with the danish in the war.  Remember that at that time most of the armies were professionels that is leased soldiers.
Grethe   

Actually North-Frisian was and is spoken in Slesvig-Holsten, so he can easily be a local to the area.
You have three different pockets of Frisian Languages: [North-Frisian, Saterland-Frisian and West-Frisian]
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages#/media/File:Frisian_languages_in_Europe.svg
They are so different as to not be mutually intelligible. If they had their own countries they would be regarded as 3 different languages [as Danish, Swedish and Norwegian are, though these three can also be regarded as a dialect continuum].
Even the many different dialects within North-Frisian are not mutually intelligible.

The census in 1803 have a big number of Schölermann & Schöllermann from South Slesvig and Holsten. So I wouldn't rule out a "local".

That it is spelled Johan Pieter could also be the clerk as you mention. 

Hej Grethe

Thank you for the historical background of the Great Northern War.   This was just ending when Johan Pieter got his land contract from Ole Krabbe.  It's hard to imagine empty farms and villages.  I heard that the king invited French Hugenots to Fredericia about 1720, offering them no taxes for 20? years if they stayed.  I guess it was a good idea to bring people to Denmark to settle there.

Thank you for finding the marriage applications of Henrich Schøllerman in the 1600s!!!  They are beautiful with the old handwriting, which is mostly readable.  So it looks like the 2 Henrichs are the same man with 2 marriages.

And thanks very much for finding the children born in Nysted.  The churchbook images on familysearch are a little better than AO, but not good enough to read all the words about the first child Friederich.  I will look through the church records to see if I can find anything more.  You are probably right that Henrich may have died before 1706 and that either Johan or Peder could be the Peder in Åle.  But it's really nice to have this family, thank you again for finding these people!


Hej Niels

Thanks for looking in the Holstenske Geworbne Regiment for Skøllermanns.  The name is not common around Denmark but seems to be more plentiful in Holsten, if the 1803 census is any indication.

The Marx Schwagheimer you found is from the same town, Lußheim, or Altlussheim today.  Very interesting that you found this.  The Ortssippenbuch for Altlussheim says he was Johann Marcus Schwechheimer, born in 1727, wife Anna Barbara Krieger, went in 1760 over Denmark to Lettland and died in Hirschenhof in 1787.  I am not descended from him either, although maybe all Schwechheimers are related somehow.  Another uncommon name.

It's a shame that the church books from Slesvig-Holsten are not online.  Not even on familysearch.

Thank you for all the help with this.  It has been very interesting and educational!

Lisa P.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781
Thank you for all the help with this.  It has been very interesting and educational!

Lisa P.

It's certainly been interesting and also very educational for me  :)

I might have another breakthrough.
After seeing that he was in Nysted in the 1660-1670's I thought it worth trying to take a look in Christian V's Matrikel of 1688 which is based on the Markbøger of 1681-1683.

The ones for Ålholm Amt [earlier Ålholm Len, then Ålholm Amt from 1662, then from 1793 Maribo Amt] is here.
Source: http://ao.salldata.dk/index.php?type=matrikel&n1=Maribo&n2=Musse

I think I actually found him from Opslag 40-43.
It really seems like (in my eyes) that it is written "Hendrich Skÿllermand"; right page, top left here for example page 42.
See: http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?bsid=126163&side=42

So if it is him it means he is still alive around 1681-83 and actually does own some significant areas as it comprises several pages.

Maybe you or Grethe can read it with greater proficiency than me.

Hej Niels and Lisa

Yes it is Hendrich Skøllermand who has some land in -or just around Nysted village/Town.
I cannet say how much, but I beleive it is around 3-4 tønder hartkorn. and sorry Lisa i don't know what it is in english. With the "hartkorn" it doesen't means that the land is meassured up in ex. meters or yards, but how many barrels of god corn they can cultivate.
All the numbers in this book are meassure numbers for "alen" maybe its called cubit in english. But i cannot convert that for neither english yards or danish tønder. so if you want that you have to ask here.  

And the book which is online is the workbook, the final land register came in 1686-89 and is not in the net. maybe in familysearch???

But Hendrich lives in the village Nysted among all the others villagers and he has land for his horses, and also for some animals and vegetabels I think.  He has also 2 small pieces -se page 43 at the end - which I think he uses for grass and hay cultivating. He shall pay 1½ læs -waggon corn (unmilled) to the castle for "rent". He is appointed of the nobleman to aalholm castle as bailiff.
In that job he had to be able to read and write. He should increase taxes, inroll soldiers, support at deaths among others "skiftedokumenter", and look forward that the farmers took care of the farm, look for run-away farmers and others etc. He didn't take part in the common work among the farmers or employes at the castle.  Maybe he has bought his own house in the village- it's possible to look in "Sjællandsfar landsting" to see if he has. Or maybe there was an landsting in Lolland-falster at that time.........

And then we know he must have died from 1683-1706 or moved away maybe got a new job or was dismissed from the old one, but he was a costumer (tolder)  in the end of the 1670ties, so we know he was able to understand german.

Has just looked it up:

For Lolland-Falster we have:
Lollandsfars landstingsbog 1665-1675
Justitsprotokol 1697-1805  -could be important.
Skøde- og panteprotokoller og register 1673-1805- her we can find bying and selling of houses, auctions and more

I don't think they are in the net- but maybe by familysearch.org.
.

mvh
Grethe

ej Lisa

I found a dokument in Lollandsfars landsting, skøde- og panteprotokoller , 1684- 1700
opslag no 10:

Hendrich Schyllermand lader oplæse hands bestalling Brev paa Tolderiod+ sammesteds. 1684 d. 27 november (paa den anden landstingsdag)

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17134261#270929,51530868

"Hendrich Schüllermand let his letter from the king, with the allowance to become a costumer in Nysted, read in the Landsting". and then the letter is transcripted with the condition of his job. So he became Royal ordinated as Costumer and left his job in Aalholm castle as bailif in 1684. I cannot find any more dokuments about him, so he hasn't bought or sold land or house.

mvh
Grethe

Hej Lisa

Just to inform you, that this mentioned portal is going to put all the chuchbooks in germany online. But you have to be a member of it and pay. at this time you can see what churchbooks they allready have. Schleswig-Holstein is the last one at the list at left. But of course it is in german. But also i who have german ancestors are looking forward to the books.  I think it is word to hide this link

http://www.kirchenbuchportal.de/index.html

mvh
Grethe

Hej Niels

Thanks for finding some information about Hendrich Skÿllermands land!  I agree it is his name, and a good addition to the collection of information about the Schøllermands in Nysted.

Grethe,

I don't think there is a good way to convert Danish hartkorn to English land area.

Thanks for the link to Hendrich Schullermand's record of his appointment as customs officer!  I wouldn't think to find this in the deeds.  The date fits all right with what I found in the church records (below).

Thanks very much for the link to the German archives!  The price is ok.  I could spend a lot of time there because I have so many German ancestors.  I wonder how well the image viewer and web site work?  AO is fantastic.  I will have to think about this........

QUESTION — how do you find the estate (gods) a parish belonged to?  Åle belonged to Bjerre gods, I know.  What about Bække, Anst herred, Ribe amt?  Abild near Tønder?  And Nysted?

I went through the Nysted church records looking for Schyllermands.  Of course there are the children's baptisms, marriages and deaths to find, but also many times, Hendrich, Barbara, Kirsten and their daughters are sponsors for other children.  I could also get some information on Hendrich's occupation.  Sometimes his occupation is mentioned, sometimes just first name and occupation, sometimes no occupation. 

Summary of what I learned:

in the baptisms 1662-1708, Ridefogeden Hendrich Sköllermand first appears in 1667, Tolderen Hindrich Sküllermand last appears in 1702, he has 7 children, and is sponsor for over 30 children.  Between 1673 and 1676, Gunder Gundersøn becomes Ridefoged and Hendrich Schullermand is Tolder by 1681 at the latest.  I think I found his death on 3 Jun 1703,
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17117513#154234,25724514 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17117513#154234,25724514)

wife Barbara first appears in 1668, and last appears in 1670
wife Kirsten first appears in 1672, and last appears in 1698
the marriages are very hard to read due to (I think) water damage to the church books
daughter Sophia Amalia married Christopher Hanssøn Lössholt on 2 Nov 1690
daughter Barbara married Thomas Weimar on 3 Jul 1697
the daughters Sophia Amalia, Barbara and Ide Øllegaard appear many times as sponsors at children's baptisms
I never saw the sons Friderich, Simon or Peder mentioned

The son Peder is the right age (born in 1673) to be Peter Schøllermand in Åle and maybe Henrich Schøllermand in Bække.  No proof yet.

I will look at more indexes & records tonight. 

Thanks,

Lisa P.

Hi Lisa

Yes thats Hendrichs dead you have found. it says.

3. Juni Hendrich Zolder, and the guild has carried him ( his coffin)

About the manors and their farmers, its difficult.
Normaly the farms laid around the manor in the nearest parishes. Often the mannor also owned the churches, have builded them too. But the King also owned land - and especially in Sønderjylland in the ridersoldiers district, as you ancestors lived in. 
But then the noblemen often got land from other parishes and spread around  from their marriage, from inheritage, and  bought etc.  So it's a really hard question to answer.

I have tried to look for Tønder amt to see what mannors and castle lies there, but my advice to you is.

1. Ask here Inger Burchhard she is specialised in Sønderjylland and Schleswig-Holstein. I think you can find her mail here, or do it openly write her name in the heading line, together with a short summarized sentence of the question ex. Mannors and castle in sønderjylland/Schelswig-Holstein- do it in the "opslag i bøger og arkiver2 eller Slægtsforskning-metode og teknik" .

2. Mail Sønderjyllands rigsarkiv , Aabenraa: mailbox@sa.dk . I am sure they are able to help you

I know whe have so called "jordebøger", from that time. I myself work with them but in nord Jylland , I have no experience for Sønderjylland, but can tell you that  there was a Landsting (County) for Schleswig-Holstein, but maybe the jordebøger for Sønderjylland shall be found in Viborg Landsting .

Jordebøger are summaries of all the farms and the farmers name and also over the mannors/castles a nobleman owned. They are done as an inventory to the king how much tax the differetn farmers and citisens should pay, and when the nobleman sold some of his farms or took loans in the land.

I am sure that Aabenraa know where there are jordebøger about Åle, Bække  etc. But they are awfully to read, because they often are written very close in small letters and not systematically noted.

About the sons. Hendrich in Nysted didn't have any farm land so his sons should either have an education as priests, clerks etc, or as craftsmen, or go the military way. They could also be so lucky to marry a woman with land.  I think his house belonged to the occupation -i. e. the King and the small land he has was sold by his dead. May one could find his "skifte" So I am nearly sure that the sons didn't stay in Nysted and if they were not lucky in getting a job at the administration or to be educated as craftsmen they went the military way.

Grethe

.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781
in the baptisms 1662-1708, Ridefogeden Hendrich Sköllermand first appears in 1667, Tolderen Hindrich Sküllermand last appears in 1702, he has 7 children, and is sponsor for over 30 children.  Between 1673 and 1676, Gunder Gundersøn becomes Ridefoged and Hendrich Schullermand is Tolder by 1681 at the latest.  I think I found his death on 3 Jun 1703,
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17117513#154234,25724514 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17117513#154234,25724514)

wife Barbara first appears in 1668, and last appears in 1670
wife Kirsten first appears in 1672, and last appears in 1698
the marriages are very hard to read due to (I think) water damage to the church books
daughter Sophia Amalia married Christopher Hanssøn Lössholt on 2 Nov 1690
daughter Barbara married Thomas Weimar on 3 Jul 1697
the daughters Sophia Amalia, Barbara and Ide Øllegaard appear many times as sponsors at children's baptisms
I never saw the sons Friderich, Simon or Peder mentioned

The King had before used vassals to administrate his holdings (Ålholm belonged to the King), but after the introduction of Absolutist Monarchy in 1660, the Amter was governed by civil servants hired by the King.
A special case is Lolland were the Royal len-holdings from 1525 were given as "livgeding" (life estate) to the widower queens as a way to giving them sufficient funds to keep a worthy lifestyle.  

Apparently some of these civil servants of Ålholm Amt (after 1662) lived in Nykøbing; in their own holdings and in the case for Henrich Schöllermann in Nysted.

So it is very possible that Henrich Schöllermann arrive in 1667 (or slightly earlier) to take a position as Ridefoged he was hired as.
The question is whether he was appointed by the King or the widower queens could themselves control he they wanted to run the estates.

Since it was the Ridefoged who oversaw the "fæste"-changes and taxes, he must appear with signature in such cases between 1667-1673 if these documents are preserved.

Marriage of Christian V with Charlotte Amalie of Hessen-Kassel in Nykøbing Castle on Falster the 25th of June 1667.
Charlotte Amalie received Nykøbing Castle and the royal holdings in Lolland & Falster as her "Livgeding". [unclear if already at the marriage or when (if) she became a widow]
She was a calvinist (and stayed calvinist after the marriage) and a queen who learned to speak Danish, which was basically unheard of in those times.
She was an extremely succesfull entrepreneur, who expanded her holdings vastly throughout her life.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Amalie_of_Hesse-Kassel  

So marriage the same year 1667 as Henrich Schöllermann appears in the church books?
Could one get the idea of was a Queen's man? Perhaps even one from Hessen-Kassel?

Sadly the following sources are not online, but these could probably be the ones to find more about Henrich Schöllermann.

Ålholm og Maribo Klosters Amtstue:
Jordebog over Ålholm Amt 1692.
Skifteprotokol 1698-1711. [as his death was in 1703]
See lists: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivskabers_arkivserier?a=Aalholm&b=&c=&d=1600&e=2000&f=&g=&h=&ngid=778150&ngnid=778154&heid=&henid=&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

It seems that fæsteprotokoller are first preserved from 1723, so no way to check when his signature as a ridefoged first appeared.

EDIT: I found them on family search.

Skifteprotokol for Ålholm 1698-1711 is here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L97C-PCY4?i=3&cc=2015318&cat=486167

It seems this protocol is specifically for "Ridefogeden", but it sadly only goes back to 1698 and Henrich Schöllermann had stopped being the Ridefoged in 1673.

It also jumps from a skifte in 1700 (page 23) to October 1703 (page 26), which is also quite unfortunate.

Hej Lisa

I don't know if the Skøllermands in Aalholm is of interest to you, but I have found a Friederich Skøllermand in Norway (391) in the Navneregister Bind XXXVII fra Norske Slekstforskere forening . And I think it could be Hendrich Tolders eldest son who went to Norway.
In the register it is page 482. It refers to some magasins the union makes, and I am sure that you can get informations about it if you writes to the union Norske slektsforskere .

http://old.genealogi.no/nst_reg/navnereg_bd_37_41/files/nst_37_41.pdf

mvh
Grethe

Hej Grethe

I think you are right about the Friderich Skøllermand in Norway.  The title of the article is "Privatansatte tollbetjenter i Norge i dansketiden."  Thank you for finding that.  I found the author on a web page so I might send him an email.

Hej Niels

I could not find Hendrich or Kirsten in the Aalholm skifteprotokol, and I looked for 2-3 months after their deaths.

I have also been looking through military indexes on AO but not finding any Skøllermands.

I think I will review all the information I have and look for any clues I may have missed and try again.

Thank you both for all the help with this.

Lisa P.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 00:35
I think you are right about the Friderich Skøllermand in Norway.  The title of the article is "Privatansatte tollbetjenter i Norge i dansketiden."  Thank you for finding that.  I found the author on a web page so I might send him an email.

The author says Friderich Skøllermand was employed by Norwegian merchants as a customs officer in Trondheim in 1696-1698.  It must be Friderich, son of Hendrich in Nysted.

Lisa P.

Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokol (1653-1919):

24. Februar 1673.
Hendrich Schüllermann paa ?hendes? Kongelige Majestæts Enkedronningens ?vegne?....etc
Source (p. 260, right): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64735116

So he does seem to be in service of the Widower-queen! This must be part of his Ridefoged responsibility.

The widower-queen at the time was Sophie Amalie of Brunswick-Lüneburg (24 March 1628 – 20 February 1685), who had been married to King Frederik III (18 March 1609 – 9 February 1670).

Since Henrich Schöllermann and wife was not to be found in Ålholm domænegods skifter maybe he could be in the skifter at Nysted Byfoged 1667-1919. These are not online though.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=nysted&d=1&e=2016&f=&g=&h=&ngid=786211&ngnid=786217&heid=2197436&henid=2197436&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Henrich Schöllermann as Ridefoged and Tolder/Zolder:

After Absolute Monarchy was introduced by Frederik III in 1660, they King started appointing civil servants from the "burgers" to positions formally monopolised by the aristocracy.
These civil servants (dommere, toldere, fogeder) had to swear an oath directly to the King and was appointed by him based on their qualifications!
The office could always be revoked if they were found to be corrupt or incompetent and was never hereditary.
Each town had to have 1 tolder and 1 toldskriver.

From 1676 corruption for a civil servant was punishable by death.
From 1683 document-forgery became illegal [my source doesn't mention the precise punishment].
From 1690 taking money from the coffers was punished by life-long slavery [tugthus].

So his jobs as "ridefoged" and later "tolder" were by the Kings appointment and working in Ålholm (royal holding) and Nysted (Købstad) he was never subordinate to any intermediate nobleman, but directly under the King (or for the case of Ålholm under the Widower-Queen?].

So he was solid in the middle class holding these positions and among the more prominent men of Nysted.
Nysted by the way had become a "købstad" in 1409 and by 1670 had 691 inhabitants.

One should really think that he acquired "Borgerskab" in Nysted.
Strangely I can't find them on Daisy, but familysearch says it has lists of Nysted Borgerskaber from 1663-1729.
These are not online yet.
See: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/533413?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Rentekammeret.
Register til person- og stednavne i Rentekammerets kongelige resolutioner.
Schüllerman (Schullermann), Henrik.
Tolder i Nysted.
Cases: 3479, 8139, 8605, 11097, 16619, 16639
Source (p.333): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484360#236994,45104844

Case number 3479:
8th of January of 1680.
"Henrik Schüllerman maa nyde Tolderiet i Nysted, som førhen er lovet ham".
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484358#236983,45101226

So apparently Henrich Schöllermann had been promised a position as Tolder in Nysted and in early 1680 he got that appointment!

Don't have time to check the rest just now - but the sources are here: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/index-creator/75/6754/18484358

Hej Lisa

I have looked up in the 1690 "jordebog" and found following owners of Land and Farms in Asbo:

Kgl. Majestæt Farmers for Coldinghus- His majesty  farmers who as riders shall serve Koldinghus  6 farms and 1 Boel
Kgl. majestæt Riders for his army - 6 farms
The nobleman Jørgen Skeel Due - (I don't know what manor he owns)  buit it says he has 6 farms for "Sønderjyske" I think it means regiment . Also it points ou that he should live in sønderskev. He lived up to 1701 and had marry an Krabbbe, se link. 

https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I31250&tree=2


The nobleman Jacob Madsen (I don't know him and where he lives)  8 farms . He might be a priest, but I cannot get any informations about him on the net.

There is only one selfowner farm in asbo. - totally 27 farms

But totally there are 14 derelict farms in Asbo- so in 1690 there must have been something seriously happened maybe the black dead or soldiers to be enrolled or who has run away. It's many farms without  inhabitant

I didn't find any with name Hendrich(Henrik) or Schøllerman/Skøllerman in 1690 jordebog.

mvh
Grethe

I've found out that he should be a mayer in Christianshavn in Copenhagen. But he died in in 1653 and his wife in 1674, but one might find a "skifte" from him or his wife.  It stands in the jordebog- and it doesnø't say its his heirs who have the land and farms.

Grethe

Hej Lisa

I found Jørgen Skeel Dues mannor it is Sønderskov gods, and there is also a register over his farmer from 1719-1796, but I cannot find any Schöllermand there, so it must be either owned by Jacob Madsens heirs or the crown.

If you are lucky to live near familysearch center or are able to get their material I can give you the titles over the land/ anf farm which belongs to the king: ''Danmark - Land and property:

1. "Jordebøger over det kgl. gods og rytterdistrikterne 1688-1763

and
2. Kopier over kronens skøder paa afhændet gods i hele danmark 1720-1727
3. Jordebøger og specialjordebøger over kgl. majestæts jordegods (samt landgilde jordebog over Dronningborg gods) 1680-1702.
The last part with Dronningsborgs is of no interest. but I think it is in the same film.

In Denmark we can only order these film at the Rigsarkivet, they are not at the net, but I think you can order them to a nearby library in USA.

They are of course difficult to read, but they will describe the farm and the owner of the farm in this period. so if Peder Hendriksen Schøllermann and his sons belongs to the king at this periode, both in Asbo, bække, Verst and Åle so you will find them .



Grethe

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 18:30
Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokol (1653-1919):

24. Februar 1673.
Hendrich Schüllermann paa ?hendes? Kongelige Majestæts Enkedronningens ?vegne?....etc
Source (p. 260, right): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64735116

Hej Niels

Thank you for finding that!  How did you find it?  I wish that justits- dom- and politiprotokoller were indexed, but usually they are not.  They can be very informative records and I have found several (too many?) relatives in them.

Citat
Since Henrich Schöllermann and wife was not to be found in Ålholm domænegods skifter maybe he could be in the skifter at Nysted Byfoged 1667-1919. These are not online though.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=nysted&d=1&e=2016&f=&g=&h=&ngid=786211&ngnid=786217&heid=2197436&henid=2197436&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

That would make sense.  But maybe they did not have a probate because their children were adults when they died. 

And thanks for the information about civil servants, and punishments for theft etc.

It is strange that Daisy does not have Nysted borgerskaber.  Familysearch lists it under Rådstueprotokoller, which Daisy does have, and maybe borgerskaber are in there but left out of the description.  I agree that Hendrich Skøllermand should have had borgerskab status.

And thanks for all the links to Kongelige Resolutioner!  How nice to find a typed manuscript, easy on the eyes.  I found all the cases.  I wish I could prove I am related to this Hendrich Schøllermand.  I worry about all the Schøllermands in Holsten and that my connection might be there instead.

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 21 Mar 2019 - 16:56
I found Jørgen Skeel Dues mannor it is Sønderskov gods, and there is also a register over his farmer from 1719-1796, but I cannot find any Schöllermand there, so it must be either owned by Jacob Madsens heirs or the crown.

Thanks for finding this and looking in the register for Schøllermands.  Jørgen Skeel Due is in Nygaards Sedler, he has several cards and is also indexed under the place name Sønderskov.  Maybe you saw that.

I do not have easy access to a Family History Center.  It does make me think that maybe I have run out of easy online sources and need "offline" sources in order to make more progress.

In the last few days I have tried looking at Holsten sources on AO and familysearch, also records around Abild, Bække and Åle, without luck.

Thank you for all the help with this.  It has been very interesting, and not so easy!

Lisa P.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 23 Mar 2019 - 15:52

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 18:30
Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokol (1653-1919):

24. Februar 1673.
Hendrich Schüllermann paa ?hendes? Kongelige Majestæts Enkedronningens ?vegne?....etc
Source (p. 260, right): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64735116

Hej Niels

Thank you for finding that!  How did you find it?  I wish that justits- dom- and politiprotokoller were indexed, but usually they are not.  They can be very informative records and I have found several (too many?) relatives in them.

Citat
Since Henrich Schöllermann and wife was not to be found in Ålholm domænegods skifter maybe he could be in the skifter at Nysted Byfoged 1667-1919. These are not online though.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=nysted&d=1&e=2016&f=&g=&h=&ngid=786211&ngnid=786217&heid=2197436&henid=2197436&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

That would make sense.  But maybe they did not have a probate because their children were adults when they died.  

And thanks for the information about civil servants, and punishments for theft etc.

It is strange that Daisy does not have Nysted borgerskaber.  Familysearch lists it under Rådstueprotokoller, which Daisy does have, and maybe borgerskaber are in there but left out of the description.  I agree that Hendrich Skøllermand should have had borgerskab status.

And thanks for all the links to Kongelige Resolutioner!  How nice to find a typed manuscript, easy on the eyes.  I found all the cases.  I wish I could prove I am related to this Hendrich Schøllermand.  I worry about all the Schøllermands in Holsten and that my connection might be there instead.

Hi Lisa.

I took at long shot I though that the reason he stopped at being a ridefoged in 1673 could be a court case - anyways I checked that year because he was still in office as a Ridefoged and I might spot his name. I got lucky for one with troubles to read old handwriting like that. With patient reading you might find the first and last entry of appearences of him as ridefoged, and maybe later some cases where he is listed as tolder (after 1780) as there must have been some instances of smuggling, one would think?

Found also in my search a double mention of him as "Ridefogeden Hendrich Schüllerman" on page 270 - in the entry of Niels Jørgensen ?...? mid page and just before the entry of ?Jochum Walther?. Dated 5. Maj 1673.
See (p.270, left mid) : https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64735126

You are probably correct that the borgerskabslister hides within the Rådstueprotokoller - just not online neither at daisy or familysearch.
The advantage of these are they normally lists the place of birth (at least regionally).

The Rentekammer entries were interesting. Even though he had the office as tolder his salary was apparently low enough to making him get an extension on paying tax and later his application for money to repair the local harbour-pier was accepted.
As a tolder I guess it is his responsibility that merchants ships could come and go easily, or at least he made the application on requests from the local merchants. But while he had official status he didn't have much wealth (compared to merchants for instance).  

Kommerceråd (and merchant) Jacob Flindt (1686-1750) was apparently the BIG MAN in Nysted, a bit after Henrich Schöllermann was there. Perhaps he even achieved some kind of monopoly of trade in and off Nysted?  
In 1732 Jacob Flindt even bought the great-farm Nielstrup on Lolland.
His son Henrik inherited Nielstrup in 1750 and became a nobleman in 1768 with the name "de Flindt".
See: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_de_Flindt

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 23 Mar 2019 - 18:41
I took at long shot I though that the reason he stopped at being a ridefoged in 1673 could be a court case - anyways I checked that year because he was still in office as a Ridefoged and I might spot his name. I got lucky for one with troubles to read old handwriting like that. With patient reading you might find the first and last entry of appearences of him as ridefoged,

That is a good technique.  I decided to try finding when he first appears as Ridefoged, using his first marriage date in Nov 1667 as an approximation.  I began in Jan 1666 and found him the first time on 18 May 1668.  Perhaps the best find is a court case I think about the death of Hendrich Organistis beginning 31 Aug 1668.

image 41, 1668 May 18, left page, bottom  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734897 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734897)
image 44, 1668 May 25, left page, middle  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734900 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734900)
image 46, 1668 May 25, left page, 11 lines down from top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734902 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734902)
image 46, 1668 Jun 1, right page, near top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734902 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734902)
image 47, 1668 Jun 8, right page, near bottom  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734903 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734903)
image 48, 1668 Jun 8, left page, near top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734904 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734904)
image 52, 1668 Jun 8, left page, near bottom   https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734908 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734908)
image 53, 1668 Jun 22, left page, last paragraph at bottom   https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734909 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734909)
and this could be the most interesting, something about the death of Hendrich Organistis
image 57, 1668 Aug 31, left page, 10 lines down from top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734913 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734913)
the case continues until about image 61, then starts again on image 64  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734920 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734920)
many more pages

I am starting to find him on almost every page!  But I have to stop now, will continue tomorrow.

Lisa P.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 24 Mar 2019 - 03:02

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 23 Mar 2019 - 18:41
I took at long shot I though that the reason he stopped at being a ridefoged in 1673 could be a court case - anyways I checked that year because he was still in office as a Ridefoged and I might spot his name. I got lucky for one with troubles to read old handwriting like that. With patient reading you might find the first and last entry of appearences of him as ridefoged,

That is a good technique.  I decided to try finding when he first appears as Ridefoged, using his first marriage date in Nov 1667 as an approximation.  I began in Jan 1666 and found him the first time on 18 May 1668.  Perhaps the best find is a court case I think about the death of Hendrich Organistis beginning 31 Aug 1668.

Quite interesting that he first appears in the office af Ridefoged after his marriage.
It means that he definitely arrived in Nysted/Ålholm, BEFORE he got the appointment as Ridefoged.

I found a list of Tolders in Nysted!
See: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Nysted

According to that list Henrik Schellermann took over that job from Peder Johansen (Tolder 1661-1680) when he died.
So we know from the Rentekammer entry that he was promised that position, before he got it in January 1680.
He should have been reappointed in 1696 and probably held it until his death in 1707.

Embedsudnævnelser under Rentekammeret (1660-1848) .
The register-source for Hendrich Schöllermann (re?-)affirmation as Tolder in Nysted from 1st of January 1696.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098590

I have still not been able to find any registers of Ridefogeder in Nysted.

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 24 Mar 2019 - 13:14
Quite interesting that he first appears in the office af Ridefoged after his marriage.

His first marriage (to Barbara Simonsdatter) was 22 Nov 1667, but he appears in the church records as Ridefoged beginning 21 Apr 1667 as sponsor for other children.

Citat
I found a list of Tolders in Nysted!
See: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Nysted

That is very nice!  I wonder what sources the author Michael Bach used to compile the long and detailed list of Toldere?

News:  one of Hendrich Schøllermand's associates in Nysted was Frederik Suhr.  They were sponsors for each other's children at baptism.  Frederik Suhr was born in Glückstadt, Slesvig-Holsten, near where those Schøllermanns in the 1803 census were.  https://andersaner.dk/getperson.php?personID=I1031&tree=Tree1 (https://andersaner.dk/getperson.php?personID=I1031&tree=Tree1)   I as I do more research on HS, I will be looking for his connection to Frederik Suhr, in case HS also came from the same town or area.

I am still looking through the justitsprotokoller for more interesting court cases.

Thank you Niels for your help with this, finding the list of Toldere and everything else!

Lisa P.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781
That is very nice!  I wonder what sources the author Michael Bach used to compile the long and detailed list of Toldere?

News:  one of Hendrich Schøllermand's associates in Nysted was Frederik Suhr.  They were sponsors for each other's children at baptism.  Frederik Suhr was born in Glückstadt, Slesvig-Holsten, near where those Schøllermanns in the 1803 census were.  https://andersaner.dk/getperson.php?personID=I1031&tree=Tree1 (https://andersaner.dk/getperson.php?personID=I1031&tree=Tree1)   I as I do more research on HS, I will be looking for his connection to Frederik Suhr, in case HS also came from the same town or area.

I am still looking through the justitsprotokoller for more interesting court cases.

Thank you Niels for your help with this, finding the list of Toldere and everything else!

Lisa P.

Looks like Michael Bach at least used the Rentekammer registers as I found, but seemed to have access to other sources? Maybe the justitsprotokol?

Quite interesting wth "Amtsforvalter" Frederik Suhr.
According to the page you found he was a soldier from 1659-1667.
So one could speculate that maybe Henrich Schöllermann was in the army together with Frederik Suhr?

Suhr family:
Bernt Suhr (~ 1615 - 1685). Born ?  and joined the service of Duke (later King) Frederik in Bremen as "livkarl" in 1635.
He had two sons:
Casper Suhr (1642 - 1701): Priest in Saksild and Nølev. (east Jutland).
Frederik Suhr (1644 - 1706). Amts-skriver Ålholm 1670 and Amtsforvalter Lolland 1683.

See family tree here: http://denstoredanske.dk/Dansk_Biografisk_Leksikon/Samfund,_jura_og_politik/Sl%C3%A6gter/Suhr
&
Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhr_family

According to the wiki page Bernt Suhr probably had a brother Claus he was "tax officer" (= tolder) in Nakskov from 1675!
Se also Michael Bach: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Nakskov

Wiki page has a third son of Bernt Suhr: Johan Christopher Suhr [tolder in Århus]. 1645 - 1709.  
See: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Aarhus

This looks like a "network"!

Suhr's in Hirsch's register of Danish and Norwegian officers.
a) Bent Suhr. Mentioned 1661
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684727
b) Frederik Suhr. Mentioned as "enspænder" 1653-1663.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684729
c) Jacob Suer. Mentioned in 1689.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684731
d) Johan Suhr. Mentioned 1645 as Musketer in Rantzau's company.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684733
e) Michael Suhr. Mentioned 1683-1698.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684736

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 01 Apr 2019 - 17:45
Quite interesting wth "Amtsforvalter" Frederik Suhr.
According to the page you found he was a soldier from 1659-1667.
So one could speculate that maybe Henrich Schöllermann was in the army together with Frederik Suhr?

That was my thought, also.  But, now I don't know. 
Thank you for all the information on the 'network' of Suhrs!  Wow, a Wiki page on the Suhr family!  If Friderich Suhr's father followed Duke Frederik, later King Frederik III, around, then maybe the family was not in Glückstadt very long.  Or maybe the wife stayed in Glückstadt with the children and Bernt Suhr came home occasionally. 

Some of your Suhr family sources mention places on Jutland, so I searched Nygaards Sedler.  I thought Nygaards Sedler was only about Jutland people, but here are 2 cards on Frederik Suhr on Lolland, maybe not very helpful:
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367346&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367346&sort=e)
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367347&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367347&sort=e)

In the Embedsudnævnelser under Rentekammeret, I found Henrich Schøllermand 4 times
1660-1670, Henrich Schülerman, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393)
   1663 April 3, Dronningens Lakaj
   1667 Januar 26, befordret  (jf. Afregnb 1665-73 fol. 26)
1670-1699, Henrik Schüler, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593)
   1680 Januar 8, Tolder i Nÿsted (Rk. origin. Resol. Seddel Registr.)
1670-1699, Heinrich Schullmann, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098591 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098591)
   1680 Januar 12, Tolder i Nysted (med Eed) (jfr. Bb. 19a fol. 3)
1670-1699, Henrich Schollerman, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098590 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098590)
   1696 Januar 1, Tolder i Nysted  (jfr. Bb. 23a fol. 277) (jfr. Kopi med Eden)
he is not listed after 1699

Is there a source online about the first one, Dronningens Lakaj in 1663?  It would be nice to know where he was in 1663.

Also, I finished looking for Hendrich Schøllermann in the Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokoller, 1666-1709.  I found many cases, but here is one I think is the most interesting:

8 Dec 1690, Christoffer Hansen Loøsholdt who married daughter Sophia Amalia Henriksen 1 month before this.  Left page below date, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315648,64735347 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315648,64735347)
What does it say about the mother and grandmother?  And why is this case in the tingbog?

Thanks for any help with Dronningens Lakaj and the 1690 tingbog case.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 06 Apr 2019 - 01:32

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 01 Apr 2019 - 17:45
Quite interesting wth "Amtsforvalter" Frederik Suhr.
According to the page you found he was a soldier from 1659-1667.
So one could speculate that maybe Henrich Schöllermann was in the army together with Frederik Suhr?

That was my thought, also.  But, now I don't know.  
Thank you for all the information on the 'network' of Suhrs!  Wow, a Wiki page on the Suhr family!  If Friderich Suhr's father followed Duke Frederik, later King Frederik III, around, then maybe the family was not in Glückstadt very long.  Or maybe the wife stayed in Glückstadt with the children and Bernt Suhr came home occasionally.  

Some of your Suhr family sources mention places on Jutland, so I searched Nygaards Sedler.  I thought Nygaards Sedler was only about Jutland people, but here are 2 cards on Frederik Suhr on Lolland, maybe not very helpful:
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367346&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367346&sort=e)
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367347&sort=e (http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367347&sort=e)

Hi Lisa.

The second Nygaard card on Frederik Suhr has a lot of informationen:
The following must be from the "Embedsansøgning 28/8 1703" where he is talking about himself!
"Efter stormen på København 1659 [Swedish attack on Copenhagen] kom jeg udenlands, men da, da blokaden og krigen varede så længe, ingen subsistensmidler få fra mine forældre og måtte derfor begive mig under ?militzen?, den kejserlige armé i Ungarn, i 18 måneder og efter freden med tyrken blev sluttet kom ?jeg? til den daværende danske envoié ved kejserhoffet i Wien, hr. v. Lilliencron, siden til fhv. rigens marskalk v. Kötbitz, Reist- og tiente welberedte gode herrer i 14 år, og har nu på 33. tjent som amtsforv. på Lolland."

So Frederik Suhr seems to have moved around a lot on his own in Austria+Hungary?

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781
In the Embedsudnævnelser under Rentekammeret, I found Henrich Schøllermand 4 times
1660-1670, Henrich Schülerman, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393)
  1663 April 3, Dronningens Lakaj
 
Is there a source online about the first one, Dronningens Lakaj in 1663?  It would be nice to know where he was in 1663.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

I can only say this is very interesting.
The queen Sophie Amalie of Brunswick-Lüneburg was a real power player, who had her favourites and those she destroyed.

"After the introduction of absolutism, the queen increasingly attracted attention for her protection of favorites and her persecution of those she disliked. It was said that "The queen is not always good toward those, who devote themselves to the king, without being dependent upon others"; that she wished to be "sought and honored", and by handing out favors she gathered followers to a queen's party who owed their loyalty to her personally, and who eventually also gained influence over her.[1] One of her protegees was Jakob Petersen, officially only a chamber servant of the king, who was given much favor by the queen and described as her "most confidant tool" until he was suddenly exiled by the king in 1664 for the unspecific accusation of being involved in "many intrigues"; after the king's death, Sophie Amalie had all accusations against him dropped.[1] Her most favored lady-in-waiting was Abel Cathrine. Of the persecutions, the most known victims are Kai Lykke and Leonora Christine. In 1662, the nobleman Kai Lykke was forced to flee and had his property in Denmark confiscated after he was discovered to have written in a private letter ti his mistress that the queen had sex with her lackeys; his was not allowed back to Denmark until after Sophie Amalie's death. [2] In 1663, she famously had Leonora Christina Ulfeldt imprisoned in the Blåtårn, and refused to release her as long as she herself was still alive."

So being "Dronningens Lakaj" in 1663 means that Henrich Schöllermann must be one of the Queens men in Copenhagen in 1663, and then by 1667 is send to Ålholm as Ridefoged.
As Lakaj he was the queen's personal servant.

"After the introduction of the Kongeloven in 1665, the queen's position was undermined by Christoffer Gabel, who replaced her as the kings chief adviser. She was notably no included as regent in the event of her son succeeding to the throne while still a minor. The reason for why her spouse no longer relied so much upon her advise in the latter part of his reign, was likely the instability in foreign policy caused by her indecisiveness as to weather her goals to reconquer the Southern Provinces from Sweden would be best benefited with an alliance with France or the German-Roman Empire."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Amalie_of_Brunswick-L%C3%BCneburg

So the reason could be that from 1665 she lost power in Copenhagen and now sends her trusted men to take care of her livgeding-holdings. From this point she also became an economic power player.

"I livgedingperioden ophold hun sig kun i kortere perioder i Nykøbing, i det længste en 2-årig periode. Blandt andet foretog hun rejser til sine slægtninge i udlandet. Det blev således ved sine skriftlige ordrer og bestemmelser, at hun påvirkede driften af livgedinget."
Source: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Amalie_af_Braunschweig-L%C3%BCneburg

So she is not so much on Lolland-Falster in person, but communicates to them by letters.
Alternatively Henrich Schöllermann could have been the Queens Servant at Nykøbing Falster Castle in the short periods she was there.


Embedsansøgninger from Rentekammeret (1660-1848) are not yet online:
Daisy sources: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=rentekammeret&d=1650&e=1670&f=&g=&h=&ngid=6754&ngnid=7716&heid=2143066&henid=2143066&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Archives on Daisy relevant to Queen Sophie Amalie. [none of these online though].
See: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivskaber_eller_arkivserie_liste?c=dronningen&d=1650&e=1670

Livgeding on Lolland-Falster (1661-1684):
See: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivskabers_arkivserier?a=&b=&c=dronningen&d=1650&e=1670&f=&g=&h=&ngid=771792&ngnid=771795&heid=&henid=&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Ansøgninger til Dronningen (1661-1685) (!!!) - Henrich Schöllermann could be in there:
See: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=dronningen&d=1650&e=1670&f=&g=&h=&ngid=&ngnid=&heid=1032712&henid=1032714&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Udaterede ansøgninger til Dronningen:
See: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=dronningen&d=1650&e=1670&f=&g=&h=&ngid=&ngnid=&heid=1058996&henid=1058998&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Lolland-Falster Jordebog 1663 - made for Queen Sophie Amalie. [not online]
See: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=rentekammeret&d=1650&e=1670&f=&g=&h=&ngid=6754&ngnid=7716&heid=941268&henid=941271&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Kostpengerulle for enkedronningen hofstat (1671):
See: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=dronningen&d=1650&e=1690&f=&g=&h=&ngid=&ngnid=&heid=9603280&henid=9603280&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

If Henrich Schöllermann was from Nykøbing Falster and got a job there at the Castle as Lakaj in 1663, then sadly Nykøbing Falster only have preserved church books from 1705 and the register of Borgerskabsprotokol is first from 1675.

So going for him being in Copenhagen, when he got appointed by the Queen in 1663, is the bet that gets us most sources to search through.

He is NOT in the list of those with Borgerskab in København in 1659.
Source: https://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/RHB-boger/KjobenhavnsBorgere-1659/1
NB: Register is at the end of the transcription.

The is a Berent (Bertel) Suhr as Kongelig Furer. Register page 197. [on page 29 + 96].
Page 29: Bertel Suer. Companistræde. Kong. Maiest. Furerer.
Page 96: Snarens Quarter. Companistrede 1. Berent Suer. Hoffererer.

Is this "Bernt Suhr" (~ 1615 - 1685) the father of Frederik Suhr?

Hej Niels, and Grethe

This thread has been very interesting, taking me to times and places I don't normally research.  Thank you both for all your help.  After all the information we've found on Hendrich Schøllermand and family in Nysted, I still don't have enough to connect them to my ancestors from Bække or Åle.  Some day more records will come online that will help.  But for now, I think I will go back to the people I am sure about and work more on them.

Your help is very much appreciated.

Mange venlige hilsener.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

My name is Jan Suhr and I am a direct descendant of Bernt Suhr born 1615 and he was "Livkarl" to prince Frederick from about 1635 in Bremen.

I just found this interesting thread on this forum. In my register I have over 3000 (and counting) descendants to Bernt Suhr.

I have done Y-DNA tests on myself and on three others in our family, we all are connected to Bernts grandchild Bernt Frederich Suhr born 1677 and we share the same Y-DNA.

From the DNA-tests of others with the name Suhr we have found that there was one different branch of Suhr's in Denmark in the 1600's on Lolland and one different in northern Germany. In 1610 there were families with the name Suhr living in at least five different places on Lolland.

Our DNA also show a match with one other man who don't have the name Suhr and the match is probably from 1450-1500, he has his roots in Lolland too. So there was presence in Denmark of my ancestors already back then.

About Johan Suhr who was "Tolder in Aarhus" I don't think he was a child to Bernt Suhr. There are records of a Suhr family in Aarhus already in the 1200's so I assume that he is a relative to that person.
There is also a lot of Suhr's on the German side opposite to Lolland around Kiel, Lübeck, Rostock area.

One very interesting thing with my DNA-test was that it showed other matches further back in time, over 1000 years, with origin in the area of north east France — Luxembourg — Trier in Germany. And in northern Luxembourg we have a river called Sûre, Sauer, Saur or Sour depending on dialect and time. From old records we know that Bernt Suhr spelled his name different, Saur was used when he came back to Denmark from Bremen. So with the name of the river and the origins that the DNA shows his early ancestors would have come from that area in Luxembourg.

The other part that is more interesting is his profession, Livkarl or Hoffeurer is something special. It is the same as Chancellor or Butler and they worked very close to Earls, Dukes and Royals. It was a guild that went from father to son in many many generations. The Y-DNA-matches we have show the same kind of background on the others and it seems like we have a guild of civil servants going back to early medieval Europe. So that Bernt Suhr ended up as the Livkarl to prince Frederick at only 20 years of age in Bremen wasn't a coincident.

To get a position like that you must come from a well known family with good references, have good education and training in many subjects to be able to handle the responsibility that came with the job. I therefore believe that the family Suhr was close to the Danish court and well known.

Bernt Suhrs descendants continued to work close to the danish court and are in fact still doing so, we have a few descendants that have been and is at the court in the present days!
Bernts oldest son, Casper had a great grand child, Ingrid Maria Müller, who was Hof frue to the Danish princess Sofia Magdalena who became queen of Sweden with the marriage to King Gustav III of Sweden. Ingrid came to Sweden with the queen and stayed until her death in 1793.

What I have been trying to find is some records of the Suhr presence in København before 1620 to see if you could find any proof that they were at the court. My theory is that my branch of the Suhr's came to Denmark with the Oldenburgs in 1448 when Kristian of Oldenburg became king of Denmark. That the Suhr's was servants to the Oldenburgs. Not possible to proof but it could very well be like that.

For more information you can visit my website. https://www.jansuhr.se it is in Swedish but Google translate can be used.

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen Dato 06 Apr 2019 - 16:29
The is a Berent (Bertel) Suhr as Kongelig Furer. Register page 197. [on page 29 + 96].
Page 29: Bertel Suer. Companistræde. Kong. Maiest. Furerer.
Page 96: Snarens Quarter. Companistrede 1. Berent Suer. Hoffererer.

Is this "Bernt Suhr" (~ 1615 - 1685) the father of Frederik Suhr?

Yes it is Bernt Suhr the father of Frederik Suhr

Hej Jan

Once I tried to follow Frederik Suhr & relatives in case my Henrich Schøllermand was connected in some way.  I found these:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098399 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098399)
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098604 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098604)

If you are interested to see what other card indexes are online, try this:

https://arkivalielister.dis-danmark.dk/ao_alt_vis_navne.php?stil=2&navn=kartotek&sort=s (https://arkivalielister.dis-danmark.dk/ao_alt_vis_navne.php?stil=2&navn=kartotek&sort=s)

I don't know about court records from Kbh. in the 1600s, sorry.

I have not yet found the birth place of my Henrich Schøllermand.  He may have come from an area northwest of Hamburg because there are others with the surname there. 

Venlige hilsener
Lisa Petersen
ved Washington, D.C.

Hi Lisa,

In the family book from the Suhrske Stiftelse they have som articles of the oldest known ancestors like Bernt and Frederick Suhr. Those articles are very old and from compiled research one member of the Suhr family did in the early 20th century. Those articles are also the base of what can be found on Wikipedia and other source of information. Today we know more and some of that old information is questionable today.

I therefore question that the Tolder in Aarhus is in my branch and also that Bernt Suhr had a brother called Claus. He was probably from an other branch. It would be nice if we could get more Y-DNA samples from other Suhr-families.

In the family book and the story about Frederick there is a mention of a Johann Christopher von Kørbitz who was a Rigsmarshal to which Frederick was in service after the time as a soldier in 1670. von Kørbitz was also helpful in the contact with the former queen Sophie Amalie to whom Frederick came to serve.

Maybe this von Kørbitz can be helpful for you to find any traces of Henrich Schøllermand.

Best regards

Jan

Here is a link to information on von Kørbitz

https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I41385&tree=2

Citat fra: Jan Suhr Dato 17 Mar 2020 - 08:40

What I have been trying to find is some records of the Suhr presence in København before 1620 to see if you could find any proof that they were at the court. My theory is that my branch of the Suhr's came to Denmark with the Oldenburgs in 1448 when Kristian of Oldenburg became king of Denmark. That the Suhr's was servants to the Oldenburgs. Not possible to proof but it could very well be like that.

For more information you can visit my website. https://www.jansuhr.se it is in Swedish but Google translate can be used.

Hi Jan [will just keep it in english].

It is possible the Suhr-family could have arrived in Denmark before Christoffer of Bavaria.
The Danish noble family Oxe were descended from Bavaria/Bayern [Ochs von Gunzendorf], so it would be natural to assume they came with Christoffer of Bayern to Denmark.
But Johan Oxe can be traced already in Denmark in 1408. So he could have arrived with or invited later by Erik of Pommern. So it is possible that knights or squires also from Luxembourg arrived already in Denmark around ~ 1400, since we can prove that one from Bayern did.

What is interesting is that Johan Oxe's wife was Ælseff/Else of Ketelskov; Ketelskov is also on Lolland.

Could it be that a group of german knights received (or married into) holdings on Lolland?

Johan Oxe mentioned in "Orbituarium Monestarii beati Petri Nestvediensis":
"Her Johan Oxæ, Domina Ælseff uxor ejus".
Source (page 328): https://books.google.dk/books?id=QtbtCsVTmccC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Ochs von Gunzendorf: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochs_von_Gunzendorf

The most prominent Oxe is Danish history was Peder Oxe af Nielstrup (1520-1575) [Nielstrup hovedgård is also on Lolland].

Hello Niels,

That is an interesting theory and it might be more believable than the Oldenburg.

What we know from our Y-DNA is that we have either civil servants like the Livkarl job that Bernt Suhr had to prince Frederik in Bremen. But there are others from our Y-DNA-group that where knights , we have some who were in crusades and we have some who took part in the battle of Hastings. A couple of branches ended up on the British Isles over early medieval times.

One thing that is contradictive with my Oldenburg theory is the match we have from around 1450-1500 and with Lolland ancestry. So that proves that they were there early on.

Our branch is close in time to the last branch that went to England, the German and Belgian line splits a few hundred years earlier.

See the attached tree on how we have spread our from the Luxembourg area.

The Duchy of Bar is central in our DNA-group, we have several traces back to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Bar

This might just be a convenient coincident but the coat of arms for Ketelskov has an owl on a blue background. The coat of arms that Suhr has is also an owl sitting on a plow on a blue background.

The history about the Suhr's coat of arms is that later on when Frederick was king (Frederick III) they were out on a hunt. They saw an owl sitting on a plow. The king said to Bernt Suhr that if he could shoot the owl on the plow he would get that as an coat of arms. He did shoot the owl.

Suhr coat of arms, it is also displayed on Ugerløse Kirke on Sjælland

Steen Thomsen informed me that Ælsif Ketelskov could have had some connection with the Budde-family from Rügen. They also had an owl in their coat-of-arms.

From Steen Thomsen's web-page:
"Budde i det gamle fyrstendømme Rügen (som blev en del af Pommern), førte en ugle i skjoldet, og ses fra 1258 frem til 1449/54 og måske længere. De havde landsbyen/godset Buddenhagen. De to slægter er tidligere blevet blandet sammen."

Der var også Budde'r på Lolland, men det lidt vi ved er at en våben med Hjortetak.
"Den lille slægt Budde [af Lolland] er vel en gren af den fra Rügen, men det er usikkert. En af dem førte en gren eller hjortetak mellem 3 stjerner, måske er det hustruens våben, hun var en Fiend med en pil mellem 3 stjerner."
Kilde: http://www.danbbs.dk/~stst/slaegt_adel/budde.htm

So it makes sense that Erik of Pommern invited families from that area. 

PS: Very interesting with the genealogical informations you presented.

A bit of an update and to keep this thread alive :-)

I have found some information about German knights coming to Denmark in the 1200-1300 era. The different Danish kings bought their services in different ways over the years. There was a lot of contact and business with the neighboring parts of northern Germany like Mecklenburg and Holstein.

In some of the old Danish castles, like Aalholm on southeastern Lolland, there were presence of German knights early on as the Kings vassals.

From my Y-DNA I know that my closest DNA-cousins were knights from Germany/Flandern that ended up on the British Isles. Our split happened around 1000 years ago ±100, we know that from surnames and coat of arms.

We also know from DNA that my branch was present on Lolland at least 5-600 years ago even a bit earlier maybe. This early DNA-Match I have (together with 2 others, we are 8th cousins) are a bit before us.

We three Suhrs have a common ancestor born in 1677. This ancestor was Bernt Frederich Suhr born in 1677-08-15 at Aalholm castle where his father Friedrich Suhr was the "Amtsforvalter" or "Lensmænd" over Lolland under the service of widowed queen Sophie Amalie. The man we have as a Y-DNA match with don't have the name Suhr but have his roots in the area around Nysted (Closest town to Aalholm) and in Nykøbing/Falster.

My theory now is that this might be the source of my Suhr families presence i Denmark, we also know that there are other families who bear the Suhr name but in the few cases we have DNA from it shows that they are in no way related to my branch. One German knight stayed there and married, if so I am his descendant.

Nothing can be proved since there are no records going back that far but with DNA we can get some indications. It would be great if we could get more DNA-samples from men with the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aalholm

https://www.medievalists.net/2009/07/on-german-knights-in-denmark-during-the-reign-of-valdemar-atterdag-1340-1375/

https://core.ac.uk/reader/52101334

Citat fra: Jan Suhr Dato 08 Jul 2020 - 14:42
A bit of an update and to keep this thread alive :-)

I have found some information about German knights coming to Denmark in the 1200-1300 era. The different Danish kings bought their services in different ways over the years. There was a lot of contact and business with the neighboring parts of northern Germany like Mecklenburg and Holstein.

In some of the old Danish castles, like Aalholm on southeastern Lolland, there were presence of German knights early on as the Kings vassals.

From my Y-DNA I know that my closest DNA-cousins were knights from Germany/Flandern that ended up on the British Isles. Our split happened around 1000 years ago ±100, we know that from surnames and coat of arms.

We also know from DNA that my branch was present on Lolland at least 5-600 years ago even a bit earlier maybe. This early DNA-Match I have (together with 2 others, we are 8th cousins) are a bit before us.

We three Suhrs have a common ancestor born in 1677. This ancestor was Bernt Frederich Suhr born in 1677-08-15 at Aalholm castle where his father Friedrich Suhr was the "Amtsforvalter" or "Lensmænd" over Lolland under the service of widowed queen Sophie Amalie. The man we have as a Y-DNA match with don't have the name Suhr but have his roots in the area around Nysted (Closest town to Aalholm) and in Nykøbing/Falster.

My theory now is that this might be the source of my Suhr families presence i Denmark, we also know that there are other families who bear the Suhr name but in the few cases we have DNA from it shows that they are in no way related to my branch. One German knight stayed there and married, if so I am his descendant.

Nothing can be proved since there are no records going back that far but with DNA we can get some indications. It would be great if we could get more DNA-samples from men with the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aalholm

https://www.medievalists.net/2009/07/on-german-knights-in-denmark-during-the-reign-of-valdemar-atterdag-1340-1375/

https://core.ac.uk/reader/52101334

Very interesting. Sadly Juha Heinänen doesn't give the list of those 300 knights, as it would be a pain to go through the Diplomatarium Danica to gather these names.
Maybe you could contact him to see if a Suhr figures among these 300'ed?

On my opinion he makes an error in the counting of Germans - he calls Henning Podebusk for a German?

Henning Podebusk is certainly NOT "German", but from a Slavic knightly family on Rügen [male line from Stoislaw].
So I wonder how many other Slavic nobility from Rugen is counted as "German" on his list .
Dansk: Podebusk, fortysket Putbus -> from slavisk epod boz and means "behind the elder bush".
Since Rügen was Danish territory from 1169 until 1325 is quite likely he was born while Rügen was Danish, since he probably was a bit over 25 years old when he allied himself with Valdemar Atterdag in 1350 as one of his most skilled supporters.

Steen Thomsens family tree on the Podebusk/Putbus family. Steen Thomsen has him born ~ 1325 interestingly enough.
Source: http://www.danbbs.dk/~stst/slaegt_adel/putbus_podebusk.htm
NB: Notice that he is not the only Putbus to go in Danish service after 1325.

I have been in contact with Juha Heinänen and he doesn't that much else to provide, he says it was along time ago when he did that paper and don't remembered any details.

Yes it depends who ruled the area when you was born to give you the nationality, but for those involved and affected it was a questionable issue.

It was a lot of movement in those days.

Thanks for the link.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen Dato 06 Apr 2019 - 01:32
Also, I finished looking for Hendrich Schøllermann in the Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokoller, 1666-1709.
Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Hi Lisa.

So since you finished the justitsprotokol, then you can continue with...

Familysearch now has the Rådstueprotokoller for Nysted online.
See: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/533413?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Just a preliminary look-through for 1673 and I found him mentioned on page 38 low left.
"Niels Madzen paa sin hussbond Hendrich Schüllermanns ?...? ?..? Walby":  etc

Still can't find any "Borgerskabslister" so I assume that the "Borgerskab" is contained within the Rådstueprotokol.....

Page 264 a new Protokol begins with 1729, whereas the left page have entries for 1762.....
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3JH-MF39?i=263&cat=533413

Page 200 has a list of Borgmestre and Raadmænd from 1665-1671.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3JH-MF8V?i=199&cat=533413

Page 202 mentions "aflagt deres Borgerlig Ed" with a list starting in 1667.
This must be the Borgerskabs-list!!
See: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3JH-MNQ2?i=201&cat=533413

I cannot find Hendrich Schøllermand on this Borgerskabsliste ?!

Thank you Niels for the reply and links to new sources!  I will look at them when I can.  I have had good luck looking page by page and it is so easy to do now with AO and FS.

It will be interesting to learn where Henrich Schøllermand came from.  There must be a clue somewhere.  I also want to know what happened to his son Peder born in 1673.  I believe he is my ancestor, but I can not yet connect the Peder Schøllermand in Åle, Vrads hd., Skanderborg amt, with the son Peder born in 1673 in Nysted.  The Åle church books start in 1721, and I have nothing before that. 

On July 12 my computer died  :'(  so I am shopping for a new one and it will take some time to recover the old hard disk and return to normal (if there is normal, now, with coronavirus).

I hope you are well, and thanks again for the help.

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

I mentioned in my message above that there are no church records for Åle Sogn (Vrads hd., Skanderborg amt) before 1721.  Today I saw on page 76 of Personalhistorisk Tidsskrift 1882 1. rk. 3. band, some information about baptisms that took place in Åle Kirke in 1707 and 1713:

"Hans Omgangskreds, naar han opholdt sig hjemme paa sine Gaarde, synes ikke at have været stor. Det er ialtfald kun hans egen allernærmeste Slægt, som han beder til Faddere ved sine Børns Daab. Da han saaledes d. 21 August 1707 lod sin Søn Georg Christoffer eller, som han i Daaben efter Giord Galt var kaldet, Giord Christoffer, døbe i Aale Kirke, vare kun hans Svoger Major Frederik Christian Gjedde paa Hastrup med sin Frue Helvig Lindenov Unger, hans Svigersøn Ritmester v. d. Brincken paa Haraldskjær med sin Frue og hans Søn af første Ægteskab Ole Rudolph Krabbe paa Bjerre Vidner.¹⁾ Ved hans Søn Frederik Christian Krabbes Daab i samme Kirke d. 13 August 1713 vare Følgende Faddere: Oberstlieutenant Gjedde, Ritmester v. d. Brincken, Johan Rudolph Krabbe og »Olaus« Rudolph Krabbe med sin Frue.¹⁾"

The source of these baptisms is given in the article as  1) Døbeattest i Enkekassens Archiv.  Where is this Enkekassens Arkiv?

Thank you.

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

From the Danish Wikipedia https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkekasse (https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkekasse) via Google Translate:
The widow's fund (Enkekasse) is an institution that must ensure the participants' widows a certain sum on the death of the husband or an annual benefit, as long as they are widows. In Denmark, they were established both by the state and by private initiative.
In 1707 the first widow's fund was established for the land military service under the state's guarantee for the fund's obligations, and in 1740 this was extended to provide access for all estates. On July 19, 1775, the "Ordinary Widow's Fund" was established, in which in 1788 it was imposed on the officials as a duty to make deposits. At the same time as the establishment of the ordinary widow's fund, the former widow's fund ceased to admit new members. The ordinary widow's fund did not receive new deposits after 31 August 1845, when the Annuity and Maintenance Institution of 1842 took its place. The last widow to receive payment from the fund died in 1921. Both of the aforementioned widow funds have caused great losses to the state treasury.

At Rigsarkivet there is a scanned index for The Land Military Service and The Ordinary Widow's Fund's depositors and their wives 1739-1846 https://www.sa.dk/find/#q=Indskyderne&side=1&at=Scannede+arkivalier

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 18:27

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 00:35
I think you are right about the Friderich Skøllermand in Norway.  The title of the article is "Privatansatte tollbetjenter i Norge i dansketiden."  Thank you for finding that.  I found the author on a web page so I might send him an email.

The author says Friderich Skøllermand was employed by Norwegian merchants as a customs officer in Trondheim in 1696-1698.  It must be Friderich, son of Hendrich in Nysted.

Lisa P.

A Friderich Schøllermand from Norwegian archives:

Friderich Schøllerman "Ørland prestegjeld 1733-1761" (Sør-Trøndelag fylke).
A bastard child [Martha Dorothea] born in 1742 to Friderich Schøllerman & Elisabeth Higraph.
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/261/hd00000000708553
&
Original:
....."döbt Friderich Schöllermanns uægte barn ?aflet? [dansk: avled?] med Elisabeth ?Hyraft?/?Higraph? -  N[avnlig] Martha Dorothea...
Source [third column mid]: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16159/31

Catharina Thullin: Friderich Schölermand's widow. "Skifteregister for Trondheim by 1678-1810".
1745: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/27/pa00000000760520
&
Originalen: "Skifte forretning efter afgangne Catharina Thullin h[ustru] Schiölermands".
See: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25091/372

Trolovelser Trondheim Domkirken 1679-1699:
Frideric Schøllermand
5/2 1698
Cathrine Johansdatter Tullin
Kilde: http://slektshistorie.blogspot.com/2008/03/trolovelser-trondheim-domkirken-1679.html
&
Original [4-øverst venstre]: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16323/50746/53

Trondheim Vår Frue kirke - diverse begravelser 1732-1765:
Schiølermans, Catherina Kulinoff - 10/7 1745, 73 aar
Kilde: http://slektshistorie.blogspot.com/2008/01/
&
The above is a mistake as it from the original reads:
Trondheim prestegjeld, Vår Frue kirke sokn. Døde og begravde: 1732-1773.
"10. Juli [1745] blef paa Frue kirkegaard begravet Catharina Thulin af?[gangne?] Schiölermans. 73 aar."
Original (3-øverst højre): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16344/50796/20
- does the "af?." mean "afgangne" so that Friderich Schøllerman is dead before July 1745? [it really doesn't look like it says "h?" for hustru].


PS: Higraf looks to be a place in Hadsel [North Norway].
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/search/properties?s=higraf+hadsel&from=&to=&municipality_parish=&address=&municipality_no=&plot_no=&unit_no=&property_no=&serial_no=&urban_property_no=&fire_ass_no=&sort=rel

Hadsel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadsel

Trondheim byfogd. Pantebok nr. 3, 1709-1720:
page 85: [starts bottom left]
"Suend Busches skiøde til Catharina Tullin". 11. Juni 1711.
&
Followed by a crossed-over "Catharina Tullin h. Schøllermans obligation til de herrer inspecteurer ofuer Brandts capital". 11. Juni 1711
Kilde: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/20229/88

Friderich Schøllermand is NOT on this list of "Borgerskab i Trondheim".
Notis over de personer som har vunnet sine borgerskap siden rådstueskriveren Friderich Bechs ankomst, 1692-1706:
Kilde (s. 47): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf

Manntall over kongelige sivile og militære betjenter samt borgere og innvånere i Trondhjem, ca 1714-1715:
Effterschrefne Befindis U-formuende, saa de samme ej Noget udj Extra ordinaire schatten kand Contribuere Nembl.
Enchen Skiollermands [!].
Kilde (s. 66, left column): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: So this widow can't be from Friderich Schøllermand as he gets a bastard child in 1742 ? [unless Friderich Schøllermand had a son with the same name who then gets a bastard child in 1742?].

Manntall over Trondhjems borgere 1722:
8.99 Hans Kipper / <Roedmæster> Roedmester
9 Chatrine Tullin / holder een kramboed / eier huus og grd. [She has a second-hand shop -> the "hus" : and a "gaard" [her home?].
Kilde (s. 76, right column): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: She is not listed as a widow or as wife?

Regnskap for Kjøbenhavns brannstyr av Trondhiem by 1730: [tax for the rebuilding of Copenhagen after The Great Fire of 1728]
Wor Frue Kirke Sogn.
Catharina Thulin ..................................................................1-0 [1 Rigsdaler].
Kilde (s. 84, bottom left coloum): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: So she is paying one of the smallest amounts of the people on the list, so she is not among the wealthy in the town.

Manntall over Trondhjems bys familier og håndkverner, 5 mars 1687:
Femte Rode
302.Johan Tullin, hans hustrue, 6 børen, 2 tiennestefolch. 10 personer.
Kilde (s. 23): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf
NB: Possibly Catharina Thulin's father.
&
Johan Tullin............................................................................. 1 handquern
(page 32).

Johan Vibe's characteristics of Trondheim inhabitants 1708.
Johan Tullin: "er ikkun slet og ret i vilkaar"
Kilde (s. 58): https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/910413.pdf

Moths Ordbog:
Slet og ret adj. kaldes den, som er ærlig, oprigtig, og ei vêd at behielpe sig med konster.
Source: https://mothsordbog.dk/ordbog?select=Slet%20og%20ret&query=slet

So Johan Tullin "is not-without/nothing-else (than) honesty/sincerity in conditions/circumstances" would probably be the correct translation of Johan Vibe's words.

Skifteforretning efter ?..? Johan Thullin. 22. November 1715:
Kilde (s. 148): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25083/148

What is really weird is that Friderich Schøllermand doesn't seem to appear in the: "Skifteregister for Trondheim by 1678-1810".
But perhaps his wife [Catharina Johansdatter Thullin] chose to have "uskiftet bo"...?

-------------------

Found a "Christian Petter Schiølermand" in Bergen : "Korskirken prestegjeld 1698-1719".
Appears as "Fadder" in 1704.
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000006081990
Original (s. 141, bottom right): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8673/74

Skifte - Utdrag av registreringsprotokoller for Bergen, 1675-1683, 1695-1696 og 1721-1738:
Petter Schullerman. Smed.
Died 1724.
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/27/pa00000000045873
Probably the same as Christian Petter Schiølermand.
&
Transkription:
17. Maj 1724.
"Skifte sat efter Petter Schullerman. Smed. Enke Karen Andersdatter. Arvinger i Tyskland."
Kilde (s. 1380 nederst): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/67590/59

Here several times where he appears as Christian (Petter/Peter) Schølermand 1705-1722 in Bergen - Korskirken:
Source: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/search/persons?s=sch%C3%B8lermand&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=

Married 19. February 1705 in Bergen, Korskirken.
Christian Peter Schølermand, smed og Kisten Rasmusdatter.
Original: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8680/27

Married 13. Maj 1722 in Bergen, Korskirken.
Christian Peter Schølermand og Karen Andersdatter.
Original: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8680/65

Hej Helmer, thank you for the information and links about the Enkekasse.  I checked the register and found a few distant relatives, so some day I will follow up on those.  It sounds like a good source of information, and one that can be used when church books have gone missing.

Hej Niels, thank you so much for all the links about the Schøllermands in Norway.  I did look at arkivet.no a while ago and found some of the relatives.  I think the earliest Frederik Schøllermand died in the early 1700s, maybe 1705, but I don't think I ever found solid proof.  Perhaps he didn't die in Trondheim?  I think he was the son of Henrik Schøllermand in Nysted.  Others with the name in Norway, well, I'm not sure how they connect.  I still don't have my new computer or access to my family research, but when I get it, I will follow your links and maybe figure out some connections.

Regarding the raadstueprotokoller of Nysted, I looked through all the images and found H.S. on only 4 pages.  I did not see him in the borgerskaber, like you said.  I wonder if customs officers in Nysted and Trondheim did not need to apply for borgerskab because they were appointed as government officials?

Thank you both for helping me!

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen Dato 22 Jul 2020 - 19:26

Hej Niels, thank you so much for all the links about the Schøllermands in Norway.  I did look at arkivet.no a while ago and found some of the relatives.  I think the earliest Frederik Schøllermand died in the early 1700s, maybe 1705, but I don't think I ever found solid proof.  Perhaps he didn't die in Trondheim?  I think he was the son of Henrik Schøllermand in Nysted.  Others with the name in Norway, well, I'm not sure how they connect.  I still don't have my new computer or access to my family research, but when I get it, I will follow your links and maybe figure out some connections.

Regarding the raadstueprotokoller of Nysted, I looked through all the images and found H.S. on only 4 pages.  I did not see him in the borgerskaber, like you said.  I wonder if customs officers in Nysted and Trondheim did not need to apply for borgerskab because they were appointed as government officials?

Thank you both for helping me!

Lisa P.
near Washington D.C.

Hi Lisa.

Yeah its definitely a trend that neither Hendrich Schøllermand in Nysted nor Friderich Schøllermand in Trondheim acquired "borgerskab" in their respective towns.
Maybe their pay were simply to low for them to wish to become a citizen? As they weren't craftsmen nor merchants it wasn't apparently needed, if you were a "tolder" appointed as a civil servant by the King, as you speculate.

The smith Christian Petter Schøllermand had family, that could inherit him, in Germany, so he doesn't seem to be a close relative of Hendrich Schøllermand ?!

Friderich Schøllermand is definitely alive in 1698 when engaged to Catharina Thullin and must be dead before 1714-15 when "Enchen Skiollermands" is mentioned.
The "pantebreve" from 1711 has Madame Catharina Thullin and mentioned as "h. Schöllermands" [but it is unclear if Friderich Schøllermand is alive or dead by this date].
Still very strange that no "skifte" after him exist in Trondheim as he quite possibly had a son - the Friderich Schøllermann that makes  a girl pregnant in 1742.

Catharina Thullin: Friderich Schölermand's widow. "Skifteregister for Trondheim by 1678-1810".
Originalen: "Skifte forretning efter afgangne Catharina Thullin h[ustru] Schiölermands".
See: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25091/372

This "skifte" is very long and strangely no mention of the Schøllermand-family [except for Catharina being "h. Schøllermands"].
There is one interesting entry.
[pages. 799b-800a, fourth column] "Juni 1711: Catharina Thullin h. Schøllermands, som laugverge Johan Thulin". 
So why would Catharina Thulin need her own father a guardian, unless her husbond had died and he had to oversee the inheritance for her behalf.....
[Suppose it could also be the death of another relative, but it is still noteworthy].
If Catharina Thullin had lived on in an "uskiftet bo", then relatives of Hendrich Schøllermand [children, and if none, then siblings] should inherit when she died?!

Skifteforretning efter ?..? Johan Thullin. 22. November 1715:
Kilde (s. 148): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25083/148
&
Here is mentioned "Madame Catharina Toldforvalters " [must be Schøllermand as Toldforvalter?]
Then later as "daatteren Catharina Tullin...faaet sin mødrernes arv"
Source (s. 148b-149a): https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25083/151

I found this interesting report, it list a few names over the years in the 17th century and the relations with Hamburg and Lübeck.

You might find something in this.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03585522.1963.10414343

The full appendix is here:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03585522.1963.10414344

I'm looking for familiar names....

Lisa P.

Hey Lisa, Niels and jan
You are wondering why you cannot find the "borgerskab" of Schøllermanns and his "skifte",
as "tolder" Schøllermann is an official dirictly under/belonging to the king and state  He is not obliged to be a citizen or to obtain a "borgerskab" in any city as other officials, and when he dies normally his "skifte" will be done by the kings officials and protocolled in the protocolls for "Hof- og Stat" or "kancelliets protokoller".
To find his appointment and also his application you have to look in "kancelliets protokoller". Which of them spcific I haven't looked for.

ex. Also officials didn't pay any tax to the local administrations- mostly they were tax free except for those tax the king required especially of them. Ex. The King often required a "Krigsstyr" that is a wartax, but also this tax officials often shouldn't pay.
Grethe

Hej Grethe

Thank you for the reply.  Now I can stop looking for his borgerskab.

It is possible that he did not have a skifte, because his youngest child was 29 years old and married when he died in 1707.  I wish I could find one because it might list his surviving children and where they lived.  I assume his widow did not have a skifte for the same reason.  She died in 1710.

I have found 3 references to his appointment as tolder in Nysted, but not any original records, yet.

Schüller, Henrik, 1680, 8. Januar, Tolder i Nysted (Rk. origin. Resol. (Seddel Registr.)
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593)

Schullmann, Heinrich (el. Sküllemand) 1680 12. januar, Tolder i Nysted (med Eed) (jfr Bb. 19a fol. 3.)  [Bb = Bestallingsbog]
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098591 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098591)

1680, Jan. 8, Henrik Schüllerman maa nyde Tolderiet i Nysted, som forhen er lovet ham.  Orig.  3479.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484358#236983,45101226 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484358#236983,45101226)

I have much more research to do on Henrich Schøllermand and his children.  And I'm still looking for proof that I descend from him and his son Peder.

Thanks for your help, Grethe.

Lisa P.

Hej Lisa

A long time ago you asked for that.

CitatAlso, I finished looking for Hendrich Schøllermann in the Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokoller, 1666-1709.  I found many cases, but here is one I think is the most interesting:

8 Dec 1690, Christoffer Hansen Loøsholdt who married daughter Sophia Amalia Henriksen 1 month before this.  Left page below date, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315648,64735347
What does it say about the mother and grandmother?  And why is this case in the tingbog?

Thanks for any help with Dronningens Lakaj and the 1690 tingbog case.

I have looked it up, but has diffucult in reading it, so i have put the text to be read in the forum. "Hjælp til oversættelse"
hoping someone can see whats it about. But i think it's about Sophia Amalia inheritage efter her mother..


Grethe 

Hi again Lisa

As you can see from the link here, I have sent the text to transcribering in the forum "Hjælp til tydning af tekster"

https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,165159.0.html

When I got answar about how to understand the text I will translate it -as correct as possible - and put it here in this forum.
Grethe

Translation of the document in Nysted 1690:

C.H.L. citizen and resident here in the city, stood for the court where he gave his father-in-law Higest Majesty Costumer H.S. living same place, whole waiver and reciept for the inheritage, all parts and rights Løesholdts wife S.A.H. has inherit from her blessed grandmother Anna Simon Schuster in Copenhagen and her blessed mother Barbra Simonsdaughter, for which inherit C.H. (L) after his own statement is satisfied and therefore he takes his father-in-laws payment for good and accurate payment in all ways, as withnesses on the written document......

If you read the "talk" about this , it sounds as if Christoffer has got some money from his father-in law, with what he is satisfied. Ole Westerman writes that he means the son-in-law has got a payment earlier. (not in connection with the document here, but it cannot be solved when and how much)

Grethe

Hej Grethe

Thank you for bringing up this old question and getting help from the other forum with reading and interpreting the document.  Thanks to Poul and Ole for transcribing.  This contains some good information — that Barbara's parents were Simon Schuster & Anna in Kbh, Anna died before 1690, C.H.L. was borger of Nysted, and I think Barbara was more likely born in Kbh than in Nysted.  That saves me some time, looking for things in the wrong places.  I will have to look for Simon Schuster & Anna in Kbh.  I did find that C.H.L. became borger in 1684. 

Since Ole found something in the Kirkeregnskaber, I will look at those too.  Perhaps it will give information that I'm not able to find in the rest of the KB (a wife's name, approx. year of death before burial records start).

Thank you so much for helping me with the Henrich Schøllermand family in Nysted.  I do think he is my ancestor, but I am still looking to prove the connection to my Peder Schøllermand in the Skanderborg and Koldinghus rytterdistrikter.

mvh
Lisa P.

Hi Lisa
About the churchchairs I'll give you following informations:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78K9?i=13&wc=M5KY-PY3%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C358297702%2C358402601&cc=2078555

september 1670 H.S. buy a seat in chair nr. 8 in the row (opslag 14) and in (opslag 47) he sells the seat 8 place 1 again  and buy chair nr. 5 place 1 (opslag 45) .
Which means he moves up nearer to the alter and maybe under the prists stool. No. 1 seat is also the first one by the hallway. He buys it in the old church, He doesn't buy any chair/seats to his wife -which amazes me a little.  If you read it more carefully maybe you can find it. it's under "quinders stolestader" Also he doesn't buy any chair or stool in the new church. I think you know that one sits in a row in the churches, so the row has numbers and also the the seat in the row.
Grethe

Hi Lisa

Looked also in the regnskabsbog from 1661-95 and found following.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78BK?i=65&wc=M5KY-PTB%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C

opslag 40 money for chairs both for men and woman-H.S. bought both
Opslag 52, child dead and Barbra dead 1671
opslag 60-61-65 He paid "landgilde" for some field he has rented from the church (to his horses)
Opslag 66 - se that childs dead and his second wife kirsten jacobsdatter-she is also mentioned at Barbras dead.
it looks like Kirsten was a widow because at he dead Henrik gives 200rd to the church in memory of her blessed husband
it says "Annammet af Hendrich Schøllermand 200 rd
som hans hustru Kirsten Jacobsdatter foræret til Nysted kirke,  efter Hindes? Sl. (salig) mands død ....? videre forklaring findes .."
next page above.
Efter skiftebrevet efter Sl. Peder Ibsen
Hvilchen vorlyiering Gud igien Rige-
ligen vill Belønne

Under barnet står der Kirsten Jensd? Sl.(=salig) Peder Ibsen

it could be that It is Peter Ibsens child who are dead not Hendriks - then you yourself can look more in this book.
Is he married 3rd times- Annammet means "Got from" or "became from" 

Ypu can get this trinscribed and translated ..

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78N1?i=21&wc=M5KY-PY3%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C358297702%2C358402601&cc=2078555 top right in row 2 chair 1

Ao 1670 in Septembr (deleted?) feste Hinrich Schullerman
till sin Hustru Barbra ? gaff 6 mark

- and Barbra was buried inside the church i 1671

mvh Ole

Here is Hendrichs dead,which you couldn't find in the churchbook. There are no date only year 1707. 

Sahl. Zolder Hendrich
Skÿllermands liig for
Jorden og alle Klocker samt
for kirckens Lius som Brendte
under Prædiken   2Rd

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78BK?i=65&wc=M5KY-PTB%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C

You are lucky that Nysted had all those regnskabsbøger as the churchbook had that lacune and is awfully written.
There is also a daughter dead in this book what opslag i forgot to write down, unfortunately 

At image 66 left bottom in January 1674 is written:

Annammet af Hindrich Schüllermand Capital 100 (rd)
Som hans k. Hustro Kirsten Jacobsdatter
hafuer forEret till Nysteds Kirche effter hindeß
Sl. Mands Død, huoromb widere Forklaring findeß
Udi Schiffte Breffuet effter Sl. Peder Ibsen
Huilchen Welgierning Gud igien Rige-
lichen will belønne.
   ------ translation:
Recieved from Hindrich Schüllermand capital 100 rd
which his dear wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter
has donated to Nysted Church after her
late husbands death, about which explanation is found
in the probate letter after late Peder Ibsen*
which benefaction God again plentifully
will reward.

*Peder Ibsen, alderman (Raadmand) in Nysted was buried 5 days after Barbara Simonsdatter inside the church in Nysted.
HS and PI's widow Kirsten Jacobsdatter prob. got married in 1672, as they had their son Peder baptized July 23, 1673 (im.150).
But this Peder is prob. buried in the church next to Peder Ibsen on Nov. 30 same year (im.66 - regnskaber)
- then they get Barbara bp. Au. 14,1674 - Øllegaard bp. Oct. 8,1676 - Ide-Øllegaard bp. Jun.16,1678 -
- and then it stopped.

Thank you Grethe and Ole for finding more information about the family in the kirkeregnskaber.  The burials of Barbara Simonsdatter, her child, and Peder Ibsen on ops. 55 is a good find because there are no death/burial records for this time.  Perhaps this church thought the accounts were an adequate record of the deaths and did not need to be repeated in a separate burials section in the KB. 

I am worried about H.S.'s child who was buried on 30 Dec 1673.  The first child of H.S. and 2nd wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter was Peder, baptized on 23 Jul 1673.  I think he is my ancestor who lived in Åle (Skanderborg Rytterdistrikt), Bække sogn (Anst herred, Ribe amt), and died in Egtved (Koldinghus Rytterdistrikt), in 1745, aged over 70 years (so born before 1675), so I want him to be the Peder born in 1673.  I will look for Peder Ibsen's children and hope that could explain it.

Thanks again for all the help with this.

mvh
Lisa P.

Hi again Lisa

I have looked a litlle more in the book, and find, that when a boy is dead he mostly writes "dreng" and when a girl dies he mostly writes "barn" -
i hope it would be one of Kirsten and Peders children-not one of Hendrick and Kirstens boys.

Dear Lisa

You have to find the estate exchange (skifte) from either Hendrich or Kirsten.
I know you have looked for it in Nysted archives without succes.
As a tolder I beleive, that the "skifte" should take place under the Kings administration, but where to find it I wonder. But of course there is one. Did Kirsten die in Nysted?

Try to ask here about, where to find a Tolders -royal administrators estate exchange (What is the correct word for it, I cannot find it on the net!)

Also I am a little worried, that the child could be Peter, because writing "child" also often means minor or baby, but in the regnskabsbog its not often written daughter  - but it could also be Simon and earlier I wote to you that he had become 2 daughters by name Ide!  I can't remember why
vh
Grethe

Also Lisa I wonder if he or they have done testaments, where are they archieved?

Hej Grethe

It is very interesting that you noticed 'barn' means the death of a girl in these records.  I will keep that in mind as I look further. 

There are so many things to look for now.  I want to look for marriage and children of Peder Ibsen & Kirsten Jacobsdatter (1662-1671).  Also skifter for H.S., Barbara, Kirsten, and Peder Ibsen.  There should be probate records for Barbara and Peder because they had young children, but H.S. and Kirsten maybe not.  It would be nice to find them.  Could the testamenter be in the Sjællandske Register?  I have been looking there for something else and can try looking for wills.  I want to find the births of Barbara Simonsdatter and Kirsten Jacobsdatter, if they exist that early.  I don't know Kirsten Jacobsdatter's parents' names.

Today I am looking at all the kirkeregnskaber at least until 1710 when Kirsten Jacobsdatter died (buried on 11 July 1710).  I did find that H.S. got a seat for his wives in the church.  I think I found the death of the son Simon, buried on 19 May 1671.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78RX?i=362&cc=2078555&cat=369664 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78RX?i=362&cc=2078555&cat=369664)

I know of 7 children born to H.S., all in Nysted
first wife Barbara Simonsdatter, buried 14 Apr 1671 in Nysted
  Friederich, bapt 19 Aug 1668
  Sophie Amalie, bapt 16 Jan 1670, married Christopher Hansen Løsholt and Nicolaj Thams, died after 1708
  Simon, bapt 2 Apr 1671, buried 19 May 1671 in Nysted
second wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter, buried 11 Jul 1710 in Nysted
  Peder, bapt 23 Jul 1673
  Barbara, bapt 14 Aug 1674, married Thomas Weymar, died after 1708
  Ide-Øllegaard, bapt 8 Oct 1676, buried 24 April 1677
  Ide-Øllegaard, bapt 16 Jun 1678, married Johan Hansen, died after 1704

The daughters Sophie Amalie, Barbara and Ide-Øllegaard were very active in the church, often were sponsors for others' children.  I have not found their deaths.  I know they died after 1704 and 1708 because those are the last times they were mentioned in the baptisms as sponsors for others' children.

Okay I'm going to look more in the kirkeregnskaber.  Lucky they are easy to read!

mvh
Lisa P.

That a 'barn' (child) should mean girl is to me a mistake - it can be a boy or a girl.

mvh Ole

Hej Ole og Lisa

You are right, but when I look and compare with the churchbook, then in regnskabsbogen it's often written boy when it is a boy in the churchbook, and "barn" when it is a girl or a baby (very young one)-therefore my conclusion -but of course it doesn't count normally. 

Lollandsfar landsting, is probably  where a testamente would be registered, it goes from 1665-75= landstingsbog, Justitsprotokol 1697-1805 , and I have read that many of the archivals from there are situated in Viborg landsting.
I mean if there is a testamente it must have been done between 1673 and 1700 (1707), and then one has to find it the day or month/year it is written and confirmed.
But of course a testamente could also be archieved at Nysted court. But as I understand Lisa, you haven't had any succes finding any clue of a "skifte"

If I am wrong. then correct me
Grethe 


Lisa. Did you not forget Johan born in 1676

Hej Grethe

I tried to look for probates for H.S. and wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter, but did not find them.  Now I don't remember if I found the records of the right time and place where their probates should have been kept.  They may not have probates because their children were old when they died.  I have not yet looked for their wills, if they had any.  I don't think I ever looked for a probate or will for Barbara Simonsdatter.  The H.S. and K.J. probates are more important because they might contain the residences of the children in 1707 and 1710.

I do not have a child Johan born in 1676.  Who was he?

Regarding 'barn' in the regnskaber, it would be easiest to write 'barn' in every case when burying a child.  We wish they would write 'søn' or 'datter.'  I did see 'datter' written once, never 'son.'  I would normally think if 'dreng' or 'pige' were written, it would mean servant boy or servant girl, not son or daughter. 

I finished looking at the kirkeregnskaber until 1710 and found some useful information, the death of Christopher Hansen Løsholt for example.  Next I'm not sure what I will look for.  There are so many things! 

Lisa P.

Hej Jan Suhr. This is quite interesting to me. I'm not a Suhr, but through Y-DNA I'm connected to people from Mecklenburg, and further back to families who turned up in the British Isles. My haplo group is I-FT195415. Tested by FTDNA BigY-700. Would you be kind enough to reveal your haplo group. And yes ... it would be great if more people will use the tool of DNA in genealogy. A wonderful thing to do, now that Covid19 restricts our usual social activities.

Hi Lisa
You are right, there are no Johan, I couldn't read it the first time, it is the first Ide Øllegård I mistoke for johan (opslag 165) . The last sentence in that baptisme stand something curious, I get it to: "hans stiffefader Michel Povlss(en)"  , does that mans Hendrichs stiffader.
Also about Ides Øllegaardsdead, did you find payment for her in the regnskaber? Or could it be her dead when you thought it could be Peter?

I've also looked in the regnskabsbøger again about the child dead in 1673. It says in opslag 66.

1673 30Dito (11 november) Begrefven Hindrich Schullermands barn
udi Kirchen hoes Sl. Peder Ibsen  7Rd-2 M

Buried H.S. child in the church atblessed Peder Ibsen (burial place/coffin) !
Also I might find that the price indicates, that it is both Peter Ibsen and a child which are buried-but thats only a hint. Can't find Peter Ibsens burial in regnskabsbøger, therefore! 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78BK?i=65&wc=M5KY-PTB%3A357518001%2C358297701%2C


Why should Hindrich bury his child in Peter Ibsens burial place/coffin?
When the first ide øllegard is dead (opslag 84) she is not buried there and he pays 2 mark for that .

I wrote 23 Okt 15:37
Peder Ibsen, alderman (Raadmand) in Nysted was buried 5 days after Barbara Simonsdatter inside the church in Nysted.
HS and PI's widow Kirsten Jacobsdatter prob. got married in 1672, as they had their son Peder baptized July 23, 1673 (im.150).
But this Peder is prob. buried in the church next to Peder Ibsen on Nov. 30 same year (im.66 - regnskaber)

This child Peder was named after his mothers late husband Peder Ibsen, and therefore it was a natural thing to bury him next to Peder Ibsen.

mvh Ole

Hej Grethe (and Ole)

Regarding the child of H.S. that was buried with Peder Ibsön, I hope that it was P.I.'s child and H.S. was paying for the burial, now that he was married the widow Kirsten Jacobsdatter.  I still need to look for children born to Peder Ibsön from 1663 to 1671 to see if that is a possibility.  I am going to be very disappointed if the dead child was Peder, son of H.S., bapt. on 23 Jul 1673 in Nysted.

Ole found Peder Ibsön's burial 5 days after Barbara Simonsdatter, on 19 April 1671.  15 Rd was paid for his burial, more than H.S. or any family member of H.S.  See top of right page of ops 52
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894D-78RX?i=51&cc=2078555&cat=369664

I did find the burial of the first Ide-Øllegaard, on 24 April 1677, 1rd 2mk 9sk was paid.  Here it says 'datter.'  On left page of ops 84
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94D-7DCC?i=83&cc=2078555&cat=369664

In the birth of the first Ide-Øllegaard, I think it says  (Ole can correct my mistakes)
1676 Dominica XX. Trinitatis, Faddere til Hendrich Sküllermandtz daatter Ide=Øllegaard. Gunder Gunderßön Ride fogit hos Vend Ampted, Wolrat Wilhelm Raadmand her i bÿen, Skriffuerens Quinde paa Haldsted=Closter bar hende, Tholderens Quinde aff Röedbÿ, Elße Jenßdaatter, hoes Sin Stifffader Michel Thovlß.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-68D9?i=166&cc=2078555&cat=369664

I think Michel Thovlß is Elße Jenßdaatter's stepfather.

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it!

Lisa P.

Hej Lisa

A few changes:
1676 Dominica XX. Trinitatis
Faddere til Hendrich Sküllermandtz daatter Ide=Øllegaard.
Gunder Gunderßön Ride fogit her veed Ampted, Wolrat
Wilhelm Raadmand her i byen, Skriffuerens Quinde paa Hald-
sted-Closter bar hende, Tholderens Quinde aff Röedby, Elße
Jenßdaatter, hoes Sin Stifffader Michel Throlssen.

I agree that Michel Troelsen is the stepfather of EJ.

And I understand your disappointment about HS's son Peder, who seems to have died.

mvh Ole

Thank you, Ole, for the corrections.

I did not find a child born to Peder Ibsen, baptized in Nysted, from 1663 to 1672.  Peder Ibsen and his wife Kirsten Jacobsdatter were there in Nysted, and were sponsors of others' children during those years.  Seems a little strange, a new marriage and no children.  I also did not find Peder Ibsen paying for the burial of a child, in Nysted kirkeregnskaber 1663-1672.

This is not good news.  It does make finding probates more important.

Lisa P.

I have also looked for possible probates - I don't think they exist anymore.

Thank you, Ole, for trying to find probates.  It is a shame the records are not extant, but not surprising.

I did find some information about Simon Schuster, including a death date, 5 Aug 1666.  That is also too early for probates, and maybe even too early for burial records in the KB.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393)

I suppose that it is possible that H.S. in Nysted had a cousin somewhere, also named H.S., who had a son Peder, born before 1675.   ::)

I think I will try to find new information about Peder Schöllerman, who lived in Åle sogn (Skanderborg Rytterdistrikt), from 1719 to 1733.  I have nothing about him before the 1719 fæste that you found in Bjerre Gods.  Perhaps he is in the Skanderborg Rytterdistrikt tingbøger.

Many thanks!

Lisa P.

Hej Lisa
yes that's sad, but maybe you find something else about peter.

I've just seen this on the net, thought it could be of interest.

http://www.bbeim.dk/28510525

Hej Grethe

Thanks for the link.  That Hans Christopher Schøllermann was a son of the Peder Henrich Schøllermann & Anne Margrethe Sørensdatter in Åle.  I followed him and found good information.  I also followed his 4 brothers, but had no luck with the 3 sisters after their births in Åle.  I should work on the girls.  So many things to look for, and of course, life, pandemics and politics sometimes get in the way.

Lisa P.

I also skimmed the Tingbog/justitsprotokol 1695-1709 in Nysted - they sometimes contain info about probates -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3FW-J9T6?mode=g&cat=418136
around the death of HS in 1707 - found nothing.

Thank you, Ole, for looking in the Nysted tingbog for something about H.S.'s probate. 

Familysearch also has old tingbøger for Musse herred and Maribo amt.  Would there be cases (not just mentions of probates) in those records involving people from Nysted?  I will look, if there is hope.

Thanks,
Lisa P.

Just went home from a little holiday to RØMØ, looking for birds immigration- Enjoyed it  very much with the close family.

Found this :
"Sjællandske tegnelser, 1672-74 opslag 479 nr. 18
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=268372#268372,50726124

Hendrich Skyllermann Ridefoged paa Ålholm Contra Landsdommer udi Lolland (no name of the landsdommer) 7.6. 1673.

So there must have been a case  I can see - no. 283 (former page) it is about some subpoena , which Peter Leeds (something I cannot read) has to take care of.


(also opslag 471, 472, but i think they are his appointments to either Tolder or ridefoged!

Here is the subpoena, Hoping you can get help to understand the meaning. I think it is something about, that employed by the queen Hendrich have the same rights and obligations as if he is employd by the King. But I hope you will get a better translate of this because I am not sure, Why should he be summonded only to affirm he has the same rights and duties as if he was employed under the King. The case is against some farmers I presume. I think the case has number 316 in justitsbook.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21722478#414956,76430098

hilsen Grethe

here is the judgement  , it says Freiløff leyere in Lolland, freiløss is the name of a place, and leyere means tennants .
Its about the tennants privilegiums , but the case is long with many dscriptions etc.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21606274#403523,74664957

In summary:
It's a fight between the farmowners i Frejlev and the Queen Mother represented by the ridefoged HS about the right of felling etc in the local forests - a right they have had for 140 years - and the final decision from the High Court is in favour of the farmowners.

mvh Ole

Dear Lisa and Ole

I have looked through Lollandsfar landsting, probates and mortgages from 1673-1714 but have not found anything about H. S. There are many probates in this protocol also probates from the other custum officers in Lolland-falster. Also I found Suhrs probate (skifte) here.
It puzzles me, that HS didn't buy his house in Nysted. Did he rent it, or did he live in a house owned by the king?.
I mean the most normal would be to buy ones own estate  and as a costums officer he is among the wealthier in the town and region.

But his confirmation of becomming a costum officer is in the skøde- og panteprotokoller also with the tolder Simonsen (which probate is in the same protocol when he dies) -but I think you have found this
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17134261#270929,51530868

When one buy estates, farms, houses one have to get it confirmed by the court and also to get the deed  - so he should have been in the Lollandsfars landsting, Skøde- og panteprotokoller.
I do not know if he could be in Sjællandsfars instead- but why should he, would there be any reasons for that.
There are no registers for Lollandsfars, Skøde og panteprot.

Hej Grethe (& Ole)

Thanks for finding the 1673 case in the Sjællandske tegnelser involving ridefoged H.S.  I have not looked at that source before but will give it a try.  H.S. was mentioned in the Nysted KB as ridefoged from 1667 to 1673, but I have not found his appointment.

Thanks for looking in the Lolland Falsters landsting for probates and mortgages.  I will look at that too (for H.S. and others in his family).  The first book of skøde- og panteprotokoller 1673-1684 is not indexed, but the others are.  Thanks for the link to his appointment as tolder, if that is what it is.  The date of his appointment was 8 Jan 1680, but have not found the record of it (probably because it is not online).

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593)

The landsting also has justitsprotokoller.  I should look at those, too.

The visit to Rømø sounds very nice.  Is Rømø a little more wild and less touristy than Fanø?  I have only been to Fanø.

Thanks you Grethe!

Lisa P.

Hey Lisa

Yes it is HS appointment from 1680 i have given you a link to, it also tells what kind of works he should do, and reports, accounts etc.

About his house , he has bought it before 1668, where we from a case from the court can se he allready had a house in Nysted, The case from his childs baptism where he got in trouble with the musicans.
And the Probate and mortgages protocols start first in 1673 , so i do't think it's possible to find the buying of the house. But at least we can confirm he didn't live at Ålholm castle when he was a ridefoged. And he might have kept the same house all through his life.
It is openlky very difficult to find the link between HS in Nysted and PS in Åle. Only the names can give us a hint, but not a prove. Skøllermand is seldom in denmark and the name Henrik also not so common and Peder calls himself Peder Henrik Skøllermand and also Peder Henriksen Skøllermand and Henrik Skøllermand. Also the elder Krabbe had estates in Lolland, but there have not been any hints. But of course no data has occured

HS figures in the following magasins:
Lolland-Falsters historiske samfunds årbøger 1911 page 276 and 1914 page 116,
Personalehistorisk tidsskrift 1945 side 236

But I don't know if it is only his name, occupation, marriage and children which is mentioned. Is we could find something in Musse herred, maybe .......
Greetings Grethe

About Rømø - yeas it is lesser turisty than Fanø, and for birdwatchers it is the best Island, because there are 3 nationalparks on the island and also the road to the island (you don't sail over there there is a 5 km long "dæmning ". And there are more woodland also.

Ill give you some informations about Costums history in denmark here.

First a map of nysted from 1677

https://images.app.goo.gl/kqiKZdQMkjyzSbBGA

https://nysted.dk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/%C3%85lholm-01.jpg

Then something about accisebod.

http://www.kulturarv.dk/1001fortaellinger/da_DK/acciseboden

It is possible that HS has lived at the accisebod near the mole where the ships are at Resens picture on the left side . The 2 house at the right side could the warehouses. It has no. 8. You will also find a similar house at no. 17 which could also be a accisebo at the road intrance to the town.  Nysted had at that time a big trade through ships. 

The first common and assembled costums rule called "Ordinansen" came in 1632it contented rules and regulations about accounts,  supervisning rules, reports and costums charge etc. Every Costums place should have 2 royal emplyed a costumer and a costumswriter (skriver) they should read and write and also know some language french or german.  In Nysted the first latin school was from about 1578 but also an rytterskole (riderschool) was present in the sogn. But we don't know if HS is born in Nysted.

In 1651 came the "Toldrullen" where among other im- and exportcharge was introduced, but because of the poverty in the country it was revised in 1672 and 1683 where it was forbidden to both im- and export certain wares (luxery things and also to protect domestic goods. 
Consumtion was introduced in 1657 and 1660 but reapealed in 1662-1671 and reintroduced in 1671 and 1688 where also the domestic goods were to be charged when they entered the cities and towns. such as corns, meat, drinks (Vine,beers) malt for beer and grinding the corns would also be charged.

In 1660 it became the stiftamtsmanden who had the overview with the costums and the archieves we find there. But accounts and reports we find af Rentekammerets renteskriverkontor from 1679 for the different counties( regioner og amter)
In Rigsarkivets samlinger, Regnskaber 1539-1660 og 1660-1898 one finds the accounts and reports .

But as The towns often leased the costums to get some parts of the income instead of sending the whole to the king, one are able to find many archives at the magistrats in the towns , rådmandsprotocols and it starts often from 1688,
In the rentekammerets archiev over Costums one will find informations about buildings, payments, problems, shipregister, and citygates charges etc. But one can also find them in stiftamtmandsens protocols.

Hoping you will find that a little interesting, i did.

Greetings Grethe

Hej Grethe (and others)

Thanks for the information on customs history.  The old maps are so interesting.  It would make sense that H.S. would live in a house near the port. 

I have put my Schøllermand families online, with all the sources and links.  If you have some free time, take a look, starting with Peder from Åle, and let me know if there are other sources I haven't seen.

http://www.kinquest.com/Schoellermand/ps03/ps03_027.html (http://www.kinquest.com/Schoellermand/ps03/ps03_027.html)

Thanks for all your help along the way.

Lisa P.

Here is a little more about Hendrich Schøllermand.
Its the matrikelkort from 1688. and the markbøger(fieldbooks)  from same year.
markbøger are the working documents, were one can see what differents fields the owner or "fæster" has and Matrikel is the result of the work
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21658914#408359,75702428

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=126163#126163,19008825
In Matrikel Hendrich is no. 4 -the last one - and you can see he has about 4 tønder land
In the markbøger you will find he's land is spread a little, he owns land in sønder mark, mellemmark, Nørre mark and closter mark- they lay north of the town .
And if we look closer in the markbøger, one finds, that he doesn't live in the midst of the town - that is he has not a townhouse, so probably it's the house at near the habour in Resens map. 
Unfortunately we don't have a matrikel from the beginning of 1700, soI I could see where the Schøllermans live in Bjerre/Åle and in Bække.
but i will try to see if i can find something else.

But i have looked through- very excactly- the churchbook in Åle, and I am certain that Anna Margrethe Sørensdatter Klein is Peder Schøllermans wife. The sergeant is called Peter or Clemend Terkeldsen . But I don't know where you found that she is called Sørensdatter too?

I will once more try to get the word from the baptism of Peder and Annas daughter Mette Frederica (opslag 10 in Åle) The word which we have tried to settle as Cadsierer (Kasserer) bookkeeper. because I am not satisfied with that. Hoping one of the very keen people will look at it.  Also you write that by peders dead it is said he is a rytter???

I can see that Peders nearest friends or entourage (I don't know the word in english) are following.

Jens Thomsen the degn (the schoolteacher and churchhelper),also called Jens degn
Jens Christensen, is the person who Anna Margrete Klein and Peder mostly participate in the baptisms and Anna mostly caries the child. his job is not mentioned
The gartner Hans  Jørgensen for the ålholm castle
Jørgen Ladefoged and maybe also Søren Ladefoged- both in Ålholm castle
Christen and Mette Møller- the Millers 
Oluf Pedersen- i think he is a farmer but not sure.
Søren Sørensen-could be Annas brother
Rasmus Nielsen
Jens Wæring
Budde Nielsen (could be Rasmus Nielsen) and Lauritz Mickelsen

so through that one can read that Peder doesn't belong to the upper circles but the (upper-)ddle ones. And it is naturally he meets with the schoolteacher, the miller and the 2 ladefogeder and the gartner 
Also we can see that the lord and his family they often figures as father at the baptism of the upper and upper-middleclasses citizens, also that they often call their children after the lords family names. Reading the namegiving at that times, it's easely to see if it's farmers or citizens who namegives their children.Farmers often uses one name which is a name from the nearest family, fathers, mothers, father or mother in law etc.

Hej Grethe

Wow, thank you for the matrikelbøger sources you found.  That is something new that I can search for other ancestors in other places.  I am surprised that a book from 1817, if I am reading that correctly, would have the name of an owner who died in 1707.

Ane Margrethe Sørensdatter's name is found in the death record of son Hans Christopher S. (maybe other records too).  Åle is the only place where her last name is Klein.

I think the word after Mette Friderica is Cathrine.  I have never found any other information on the 3 daughters.  And yes Peder Schøllermanns occupation in his death record is aftakkede rytter.

It seems as though Peder & his wife are in the mid-upper class in Åle, and even in Bække she is called Madme Schöllermanns, once in 1733.  But something must have happened.  They stop sponsoring other children and die poor in Egtved.

Unfortunately there are some missing records - no Åle church books before 1721, no Tyrsting-Vrads herred tingbøger 1722-1734.  I have not found any fæsteprotokoller for Bække.

I will look more at the matrikelbøger today.  Thanks again for finding those records about H.S.

Lisa P.

When we work with people living so long back-in the 1600-1700 there are often big holes in the materials -unfortunately - and it takes so much time to find but a little bid or hint. Also one have to go to materials far away from the headlines.

So I have looked Skøder- og panteprotokolelr from Viborg landsting through from 1680-1740 about Ole Krabbe and his daughter Ide Sophie Gjedde, to see if we can find anything about Peder Schøllerman from Åle. But didn't find anything. Ole has bought-through his life- a lot of  properties with farmers lots on and he has also inherit some, and got some from marriage.
here is a link to Viborg Landsting, if you scroll down you will find  skøder- og panteprotokoller, and also you will find register to skøder- og panteprotokoller, and a lot more in Landstinget.  But it is difficult to read , The number in the register means Folio and it is written -the number - in the upper right corner of the books. In the register one can both look for names of person, of farms, castles, mannors and villages and places.  remember to look in the register in all the mentioned years- there can be up to 3 books for the same years.

https://arkivalielister.dis-danmark.dk/ao_alt_vis_navne.php?stil=2&navn=Viborg+Landsting&sort=a&max=1

Ide Sophie was the daughter who inherit the Bjerregård and she often had short of money, and then she pawned her land and farms, but now sign of Peder Schøllermand mentioned as tenant. He was not either mentioned in the early pawns of Ole Krabbe.

Now I only miss to look at The skifte from Ole and also at the skifte from Oles second wifes husbands dead, to see if Peder is mentioned there as tenant. If not i am nearly sure that peter has owned his own house, and then it could be we find the bought in Viborg landsting, or that Peter is the Johan Pieter Ole Krabbe has given a house to rent in Åle. The skifte from his first wife I have looked through because it contens one of my own ancestors.

When I find the skifte I will give you the links-

About a link between Henrik in Nysted and Peder in Åle, Peder is also calling his daughter Øllegård which Henrik also do, calls 2 daughter. Øllegård is a rare name.
I still find it curious that Henrik should put his own son in a foreign man's  burial place. To give him his former wifes husbands name I accept and acknowledge , but as said - in that time people had other norms and culture habbits, which we don't know anything about. 

The matrikelbooks are often copied and overwritten  (so save paper and work) through times so former owners are not deleted, so it's also with the matrikelmaps.

Grethe 

Lisa
here is Oles understanding of the word "cadsrier".  which I find very true. He means he is the barber of Ole Krabbe.

https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,165896.new.html#new 

I didn't find the skifte or testamente from neither Ole Krabbe or Ide Sophies Gjeddes former fiancee F. Unger, who died in 1697. I found a papir where Ungers brother renounced his inherit- but no list of farms,farmers etc.  I am told that the King has signed it, so it must excist- maybe in Danske kancelli.

But I found this-unfortunately in danish - but it gives a realy solid information of Åle sogn and it's history. And we can also see, that Peder (Henriksen) Schøllermann has not been any tennants in Åle. It's very god written and very carefully with the informations. Hoping you can read a little of it. or ask if there is something you want to be explained.

https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/807007.pdf

Also I found this, but cant' find a copy of it on the net.

John Kvist has written a book in 1936, and Vald. Andersen has prepared it with new informations and new findings in 1973. Kvist book is reprinted in 1972. 

Bække (Anst herred, Ribe amt)

    Kvist, John og Vald. Andersen: Bække Sogn. Historisk Udvalg for Bække Sogn, 1936 -73. 2 bd. (bd. 1 genoptr. 1972).

He Grethe

I think now the matrikelbøger numbers 1793-1837 are book numbers and not years.   The matrikelbøger were created in 1688.  I found a guide to Christian 5.'s matrikelbøger that shows which books contain which parishes. 

https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/900058.pdf (https://dis-danmark.dk/bibliotek/900058.pdf)

Aale is in matrikelbog nr. 1829.  1688 is a little early for my ancestors, and I didn't find any familiar names.

Regarding Viborg Landstings skøde- og panteprotokoller, there is a large index of persons names

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=188617#188617,31881163 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=188617#188617,31881163)

I don't know if that contains all the personal names in the indexes for each of the years.  I did not find Schøllermands in the large index.

Thanks for trying to get interpretation on Cadsrier.  Badskier?  Could be.  I would wish for the occupation to be written after his name, not after the child's name.  I thought the word was Cathrine.

I think the name Øllegaard came from Øllegaard Barnewitz of Rudbjerggaard, daughter of Frederik von Barnewitz and Ida Jørgensdatter Grubbe, wife of Christian von Bulow.  She was a sponsor at Peder's baptism (but not H.S.'s daughters Ide-Øllegaard). 

Thanks for the link to the Åle history.  It is nice that it gives the history of the farms in the parish.  I can copy & paste the text into google translate if I need to. 

I will look for a skifte for Ole Krabbe.  There should be one.  Peder S. left Åle in about 1732, so if his widow requested an uskiftet bo and she lived that long, Peder would probably not be mentioned.

Lisa P.

Lisa

Thanks for trying to get interpretation on Cadsrier.  Badskier?  Could be.  I would wish for the occupation to be written after his name, not after the child's name.  I thought the word was Cathrine.

Looking again at https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=171056#171056,28713120 I think I was wrong
about my 'Badschier' - Cadhrine shall prob. be read as Cathrine - see also Nygaards
https://www.ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=332384&sort=e
- Nygaard usually uses K for the original C -

mvh Ole

Thanks, Ole, for taking another look at the mystery word.  I do think it's Cathrine.  There is another Cathrine clearly written 2 pages later, where t looks like d and there is no doubt about the -ine ending.

Lena Cathrine Krabbe, 27 Dec 1727
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=171056#171056,28713122 (https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=171056#171056,28713122)

Maybe some day I will find Mette Friderica Cathrine Pedersdatter as an adult and will be able to confirm her name.

Yesterday I searched the Bjerre Gods fæsteprotokoller from 1719 when Peder Skøllermand gets his house until 1738 after he moved to Bække sogn.  Sometimes a record names the previous tenant, so I hoped to find Peder's name in the record of the next tenant of Peder's house.  But no, nothing.  I did notice that his name in the index to the fæstepr. is spelled Møllermand.   ::)

Thanks for the continued help!

Lisa P.

Hej Lisa

Have just looked once again atPpeter Schøllermann.
First I have tried to find Ole Krabbes skifte or testamente, but it seems it does'nt excist.
Then.
In 1721 Peder S. was 45 years, when he got his second child . I think at that time he was already "Aftakket/abdanken  rytter" so he was not young. Ole Krabbe had many former soldiers as tennants, and his friends etc. also often were from the military. Ole self stopped about 1698 when he married Kirsten Schwichtenberg, he served all he's time at 3. Jyske Rytteriregiment and ended as ritmester (ridermaster) . So Peder could easely be one of his riders.
The contract with Johan Pieter shows, that it is a house in åle town, not a farm, and also Peders friends lives in the town and has something to do with the mannor ex. gartner, Ladefoged, Miller etc. Peder could have been Ole Krabbes postrider. or maybe one of his drivers. But as postrider he would be a betrotted employed at Ole's and as an official Ole needs a postdriver, also because he lived on his mannor not in Copenhagen. And therefore his family was sponsors to Peders children. but of course just a guess. Also the speculations about his son Ole Krabbe and his marry with a much younger girl, could it be arranged . W will never know.

When Ole dies Peder is 55 years old and I think, that at that time he is worn out and should be pensioned-so if he stays in Åle to about 1735-38 he is already an old man in his 60ties.
That is when we have speculated in what have happend since he moved to Bække, I am sure it is because he was getting to old to work at or for the mannor, so that also explained the apparently poverty in Bække, we can see-about the case with Ulf and the stolen cabbage. It could then be that he has got a small house with little earth to grow from the Bjerregård, but he could also get it from other or buyed it himself. Bække is another Herred Anst herred, I haven't looked there ...

The Book about Bække sogn is not on the net and not at the slægtforskernes bibliotek, so only at the localarchiev in Anst one can get it and of course in some bibliotecs one can order it.

Here I give you all the archieved about Ole Krabbe,I have only scimmed them, so when Ide Gjedde,Ole Krabbes widow sells her inheritage it could be that we find Peder Schøllermann among those in the "jordebøger". they are difficult to read, but it is possible

Ole Krabbe.

It could be that the opslags numbers are not similar to the ones you get, when you use your pc- but there are just around the same opslag as mentioned here.

Jyske registre 1710-15 opslag 22 folio 218 Bevilling til testamente. He asked for it, but it seems it has never been written      or found. -but there are many informations there
Jyske registre 1725-30 opslag 501 folio 496,
jyske registre 1730-32 -book 2 opslag 249 left side, folio 244

Viborg landsting, Skøder- og panteprotokoller.

Oluf Krabbe:
1724-1727 opslag 137 folio 210, opslag 139 folio 211, opslag 540 folio 606

Ida Sophie Gjedde.
1727-31
opslag 232 folio 317
opslag 253 folio 337

1731-34
opslag 211 folio 189
-         260 -      237
-         282 -      255
-         309 -       282
-         326 -       298
-         423 -       392
-         454 -       416
-         537 -       491
-         582 -       526
-         81           719   book 3
-         132  -           765 do.

Most of them contens jordebøger with names of the tennants and farmers, but Ide Sophie has dealt with her sons and doughters so the house in Åle maybe belongs to one of her children and therefore is not mentioned in her lists when she pawns or sold any of the properties.

It would have been nice if we could find a pension for Peder S. or a skifte from his wife. but..... they must be in Egtved, which i think is Vejle amt, Jerlev herred. Also I hope that Peder S. occurs in the book about Bække,. You could ask here if anyone has the book and would look if he is mentioned there.   

Thank you, Grethe, for finding the Jyske Register and Viborg Landsting pages for me to look at.  I was able to find them all.  I did not find Peder S., unfortunately.  I did find some jordebøger with names of tenants, and that can be very helpful, especially between the years the large detailed jordebøger were created.

I also looked for about 60 of my ancestors and some place names in both the Jyske Register and Viborg Landsting indexes.  This has kept me busy almost 2 weeks.  Most of my people are not in either source, but I did find a few and am still working on following those leads. 

Why are there deeds in the Viborg Landsting?  There was a problem or dispute with the deeds?

Your explanation about Peder S. being too old to work and poor is quite likely.  Being over 70 years old when he died in Jan 1746 means he can be a son of Henrich in Nysted, but being born that early means he was getting married at about age 47 and having children from age 48 to 65.  Perhaps the age at death is a mistake and he was younger, but so unhealthy that he looked much older.  Also Peder S. does not name a daughter Kirsten, after Henrich's wife & Peder's mother.  I will keep looking, and hopefully find a clue somewhere.

Thanks again for all your help with this.  It has been very interesting to research.

About the deeds.
When you buy a property in Denmark- also at that time,historical time - one have to public it and to get it confirmed by the autorities.
One had to get it "read at the court" (læst på Thinge) -from ca. 1200 to ca.    1600 -  so everyone knows that the property now belongs to another person and that the trade is legal. Also so the autorities/administration know whom is going to pay tax of the property or its crops and animals. Up to about 1600 the reading was oral but later on it was written down.

The autorities and administration had to be more accurate to administrate all those trades, so the king decided that buying and selling of properties should be "read" on the 3 Landsting -to day high court - which both had the criminal court and the property trade and dealt with similary aspects ex. executions, auctions, property exchange conc. død (skifter) etc.  The 3 landsting (there was 5 ) Viborg landsting, Sjællandsfar Landsting,Fynsfar landsting, Bornholms landsting and Lolland-Falster  Landsting.

So there were no problems or disputes with the deeds, but for mannors and big farms people should go to the Landsting instead of the Byting or herredsting. And when a nobleman sold his properties it should be noted at the Landsting- even if we see that noblemen now and then prefer to round or bypass the Landsting, especially when they themselves could held a court or be a judge - and thats often a problem for us genealogists. 

The noblemen often had lack of money, so they pledge pawns on the land and the mortgage also should be noted at the court so others knew that the land was mortgaged - (hoping thats the right word!) - at that time we didn't have any bonds or paper securities/evidences of properties.  And the bank system was not developed, so one lended money from each others.

So you see thats the reason the nobleman and other had to make jordebøger are also they are proofs of the trade. Also they had to write the tennants (farmers) name, and how big -in area -the farm is, because the farmers were not free they belonged to the noblemen, that is the buyer also got the farmer when he bought the land......


About Peters age, we have earlier talked about Peter got married with the Klein girl because she was pregnant with Olle Krabbe or with Ole Krabbes son, and that it was an arranged marriage, his age could be a hint in that direction. Also Peter he had to serve as soldier at least 8 years, he made a contract for that - and very very often the soldiers renewed their contract after the first 8 years.
Probably Peter was a hired rider- which was the most used in that period - and the soldier didn't get any payment when he was not on duty or in war, so therefore the king often send regiments etc abroad so they could serve another king who was in war.
The hired soldiers often came from Germany and Holland sometimes France, and the hiremen caught or persuaded men which looked fresh, strong and tall- or was god on a horse etc.- they could be 15 years or 30 years, -
Because of the small payment and the missing wages when in peace the" aftakkede" soldiers were very poor. Often they could not find any job when finished the soldiers life, that's also a reason for renew the contract.  Also they hadn't any place to live (house,room) If a soldier had been educated as a craftsman in the army, he could also work as such, when he stopped, but the craftsmen and their Lodges forbad any craftsman who was not educated by them in the cities- so he only had a real change if he went to the countrysides. There are descriptions and drawings from that time which shows what a problem "aftakkede" soldiers were in the cities and how poor they where, often they were handicapped too and many of them had families. So Ole Krabbe did a good job to hire them as tennants in his villages and land. 

I send you a little pamflet -in danish - but I am sure it is of some interrest, even if it is for school children. I think you could get it google translated because the language is not so difficult.

https://www.fredericiahistorie.dk/sites/fredericiahistorie.subsites.fredericia.dk/files/soldat_i_1600-tallet.pdf

venlig hilsen
Grethe

Citat fra: Niels Bach-Lauritsen Dato 27 Okt 2020 - 09:27
Hej Jan Suhr. This is quite interesting to me. I'm not a Suhr, but through Y-DNA I'm connected to people from Mecklenburg, and further back to families who turned up in the British Isles. My haplo group is I-FT195415. Tested by FTDNA BigY-700. Would you be kind enough to reveal your haplo group. And yes ... it would be great if more people will use the tool of DNA in genealogy. A wonderful thing to do, now that Covid19 restricts our usual social activities.

Hej Niels,

Sorry for the late answer

My haplogroup is R1b-U152->L2->FGC22501->FGC22516->FGC23321