Hello. I know from his marriage certificate that my great-grandfather John Hansen married an Englishwoman in 1870. On his marriage license he said he was born in Denmark in 1844 and that his father was Peter Hansen.
According to Ancestry.com, there is a christening record for John Hansen, son of Hans Pedersen and Kirsten Johnsdtr in April 1844. According to the Denmark Census of 1850, there is a one-year old by that name and parents' names living in Ribe, Goring, Hunderup. Is it possible to confirm that this is my grandfather? Also, my g-grandfather John Hansen was a merchant seaman in England. Is it possible to find an Afgangslister with his name on it in the 1860's?
Thank you very much,
Tina Hansen
Tina
First you should make up your mind if you trust John Hansen's marriage license or not ?
According to that he was born 1844 and his father was Peter Hansen.
Your own suggestion is that John was born 1849 and his father was Hans Pedersen.
Is it likely that John has forgotten about his own birth and his fathers name?
Note that "John" could come from: Jon, John, Johan, Johannes and even Jonas.
If it is correct - as stated in the marriage license - that he carries the surname Hansen as his father, then it would be an option to look for his birth in the Schleswig area. He would consider himself as Danish; Ancestry however may list him as German!
It would be helpful if you provided the names of his children.
best regards
Karsten
Also please add anything else you can, Tina. Where did he live when he got married, and/or earlier, as much earlier as you can place him? Have you found him in a census or other records? Do you know his year of immigration or naturalization? What was his wife's name and birth year? Does he have siblings who live near him? (Sometimes an individual is found by tracing someone who is kin to them.) Do you know his date of death? A death record may list an exact day/month/year birth date and might end up being helpful in sorting him out from other John Hansens of 1844.
Sometimes a forum member comes up with a match based on slim information. That could happen.
Even so, I stand by this recommendation to "tell all." Being proactive cannot hurt, takes very little more effort (because you're just saying what you already know), and could possibly be not only useful but essential.
Præstø, Tybjerg, Næstved Købstad, Nestved Kiøbstad, Møllegaden, forhuset, 171b, FT-1845, B8012
Peter Hansen 30 Gift skomager Abernes, Præstøe Amt
Caroline Carstensen 24 Gift hans kone Nestved
Ane Hansen 4 Ugift deres børn Nestved
Christian Hansen 2 Ugift deres børn Nestved
Johan Hansen 1 Ugift deres børn Nestved
Carl Warder 20 Ugift skomagerlærling Nestved
Here's a possible match found in a couple minutes searching ddd.dda.dk....
and another....
Bornholm, Vester, Rønne Købstad, Øster Kvarter, 274, 316, FT-1845, A0604
Søren Peter Hansen 47 gift Murermester Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Caroline Kirstine Hansen 34 gift hans kone [Søren Peter Hansen] Poulsker Sogn - Bornholms Amt
Hans Hansen 20 ugift deres søn, i murerlære hos faderen Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Christian Hansen 12 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Marie Kirstine Hansen 10 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Soverine Petrie Hansen 8 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Juliane Caroline Hansen 4 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Carl Johan Hansen 1 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
I've found four or five boys who fit living as foster children or with widowed mothers, so I can't immediately tell the father's name...now we're about ten minutes into this.
The same family in the 1850 census:
Praestoe, Tybjerg, Næstved Købstad, Mølle Fjerding - Møllegade, No. 171 B, 228, FT-1850, C6628
Navn: Alder: Civilstand: Stilling i husstanden: Erhverv: Fødested:
Peter Hansen 35 Gift Skomager Veilø Sogn, Pr. Amt
Caroline Marie Carstensen Egebjerg 29 Gift Hans Kone Nestved
Ane Christiane Nicoline Hansen 9 Ugift Deres Børn Nestved
Johan Martin Hansen 5 Ugift Deres Børn Nestved
Ferd. Bohne Hansen 4 Ugift Deres Børn Nestved
Carl Andreas Hansen 1 Ugift Deres Børn Nestved
Karsten
Another option:
Sydslesvig, , Grossenwiehe, Lüngerau, Nebenwohnung, 105b F1, FT-1845, D2368
________________________________________
Navn: Alder: Civilstand: Stilling i husstanden: Erhverv: Fødested:
Cath. Maria Andresen 70 Witwe Miethsfrau, und lebt von Almosen Grosswiehe
Cath. Maria Jessen 60 Witwe Miethsfrau, lebt zum Theil von Almosen Buerkall
Sessel Johannsen 29 Unverheir. Tochter Grosswiehe
Johann Peter Hansen 1 Unverheir. unehel. Kind Grosswiehe
He he ...this is like playing pick up sticks
Svendborg, Langelands Sønder, Lindelse, Lindelse, et Hus, 50, FT-1850, D2994
Anne Marie Christensdatter 55 Enke Inderste *her i Sognet
Johannes Hansen 5 Ugift Pleiesøn Strynø
Svendborg, Sunds, Svendborg Købstad, I Forstaden uden for Møller Port, , 269 B F1, FT-1850, D2308
Tine Hansen 41 Enke Lever af Haandarbeide Korsør
Marie Hansen 15 Ugift Huusmoderens Datter Korsør??
Agnete Hansen 10 Ugift Huusmoderens Datter Korsør??
Johannes Hansen 7 Ugift Huusmoderens Søn Korsør??
Hans Hansen 5 Ugift Huusmoderens Søn Korsør??
I like yours, Karsten. : D
Previously I didn't post pleiesøn boys or sons of widowed mothers or father otherwise not shown in census.
CitatSvendborg, Langelands Sønder, Lindelse, Lindelse, et Hus, 50, FT-1850, D2994
Anne Marie Christensdatter 55 Enke Inderste *her i Sognet
Johannes Hansen 5 Ugift Pleiesøn Strynø
This one was born 24. June 1845, and his father was Hans Gotfredsen
One less to investigate :D
Karsten
CitatBornholm, Vester, Rønne Købstad, Øster Kvarter, 274, 316, FT-1845, A0604
Søren Peter Hansen 47 gift Murermester Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Caroline Kirstine Hansen 34 gift hans kone [Søren Peter Hansen] Poulsker Sogn - Bornholms Amt
Hans Hansen 20 ugift deres søn, i murerlære hos faderen Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Christian Hansen 12 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Marie Kirstine Hansen 10 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Soverine Petrie Hansen 8 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Juliane Caroline Hansen 4 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
Carl Johan Hansen 1 - deres barn Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt
This Carl Johan Hansen dies before 1850 and is "replaced" by a younger brother:
bornholm, Vester, Rønne Købstad, Øster Qvarter, Matr. nr. (273 & 274), 1, FT-1855, B2093
Navn: Alder: Civilstand: Stilling i husstanden: Erhverv: Fødested:
Søren Petter Hansen 57 Gift - Vatfabrikant Rønne [Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt]
Karoline Kirstine Hansen 44 Gift hans kone - Povelsker [Povlsker Sogn - Bornholms Amt]
Severine Peterie Hansen 17 Ugift deres børn - Rønne [Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt]
Karoline Hansen 13 Ugift deres børn - Rønne [Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt]
Karoline Johanne Hansen 9 Ugift deres børn - Rønne [Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt]
Carl Johan Hansen 4 Ugift deres børn - Rønne [Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt]
Marie Kirstine Hansen 1 Ugift deres børn - Rønne [Rønne Købstad - Bornholms Amt]
Karsten
Wow - that's great that you are ruling them out! Narrowing it down....
When Tina comes with more info that might help.
Including boys of unknown fathers widens the pool a lot....
Aalborg, Kær, Vadum, Halager Skoledistrikt, Halager By, et Hus, 128, FT-1855, C6852
Svend Christensen 60 Gift Husmand. Husfader Dronninglund Sogn, Aalborg Amt
Ane Marie Pedersdatter 74 Gift hans Kone Hammer Sogn, Aalborg Amt
Johan Peter Hansen 12 Ugift haves i Pleje for Betaling Aalborg
Aarhus, Framlev, Borum, , Et Huus, 24 F1, FT-1850, B6447
Christen Ibsen 61 Gift Fattiglem Tinning
Karen Mari Eriksdatter 63 Gift Hans kone [Christen Ibsen] Borum
Ane Mette Christensen 14 Ugift Deres datter [Christen Ibsen og Karen Mari Eriksdatter] Ibd [Borum]
Johannes Hansen 6 - Et opfostrings barn Ibd [Borum]
Aarhus, Hads, Hvilsted, Hvilsted By, 1 Gaard, 1, FT-1860, C1763
...Johan Hansen 15 Ugift [deres tjenestekarl] Odder S., Aarhuus Amt
Better to wait for Tina.
Oh dear. I have very little information:
His father Peter Hansen was a seaman, according to my grandfather John's marriage certificate. My grandfather's name on the marriage certificate is John Julius Hansen. He married Dorothy Humphries in Sunderland, England 23 Jul 1870. She was born Sept 1847 in Sunderland. They had one son that I know of named, what else, John Hansen who emigrated to the U.S. in 1914. Dorothy lived in Sunderland until her early death in 1891. There may have been 2 other sons but I'm not sure. I have no death certificate for my grandfather as I have no idea where he died.
It seems I have posted my query too soon. But I'm very confused now about the patronymic naming system. Given how it works, I thought it was possible Hans Pedersen could have been his father.
Thanks for your help thus far.
Tina
Here's an option:
Bornholm, Nørre, Allinge-Sandvig Købstæder, Allinge Købstad, 94, 108, FT-1845, A0602
________________________________________
Navn: Alder: Civilstand: Stilling i husstanden: Erhverv: Fødested:
Hans Jørgen Pedersen 43 gift Fisker og Avlsmand Allinge-Sandvig Købstad, Allinge - Bornholms Amt
Hansine Kirstine Hansen 24 gift hans kone [Hans Jørgen Pedersen] Olsker Sogn - Bornholms Amt
Laurits Peter Hansen 4 - deres søn Allinge-Sandvig Købstad, Allinge - Bornholms Amt
Johan Julius Hansen 1 - deres søn Allinge-Sandvig Købstad, Allinge - Bornholms Amt
Peder Larsen 75 gift Vandmøller Olsker Sogn - Bornholms Amt
Karen Ancher 62 gift hans kone [Peder Larsen] Allinge-Sandvig Købstad, Sandvig - Bornholms Amt
Bornholm, Nørre, Allinge Købstad, Allinge, Matr. No 65, 89, FT-1850, C3078
________________________________________
Navn: Alder: Civilstand: Stilling i husstanden: Erhverv: Fødested:
Mads Peter Was 29 Ugift Fisker, Huusfader Allinge
Hanssine Christine Hansen 29 Fraskilt hans Huusholderske Olsker Sogn
Johan Julius Hansen 6 hendes Søn Allinge
Jenssine Amalie Was 1 hendes Søn Allinge
Johan's parents were divorced before he was 5 (his younger sister could be after the stepfather).
So he remembered that his fathers name was Peter, although it was Hans Pedersen.
Can't find a better proposal :D
Karsten
1855
Bornholm, Nørre, Allinge Købstad, Allinge Købstad, et Huus, 65 A, FT-1855, C3446
Mads Peter Wass 34 Gift Fisker. Huusfader Allinge
Hanssine Christine Hansen 34 Gift Hans Kone Olsker sogn
Johan Julius Hansen 11 Ugift Hendes Søn Allinge
Jenssine Amalie Wass 6 Ugift Deres Datter Allinge
Bolette Marie Wass 2 Ugift Deres Datter Allinge
In 1860 census the family is still at Allinge but Johan Julius is not living with them.
The father in Karsten's "proposal" - ;)
1834
Bornholm, Nørre, Allinge-Sandvig Købstæder, Allinge, Ved Aaen No 4, 98, FT-1834, C0126
Peder Larsen 63 Gift Avlsmand
Karren Hansen 62 Gift hans Kone
Hans Jørgen Pedersen 30 Ugift deres Søn, er Fiskere
Marthe Pedersen 31 Ugift deres Døttre
Kistine Pedersen 25 Ugift deres Døttre
We don't need this one yet (as the family connection is not verified) but I'll throw it in anyway:
1801
Bornholm, Nørre, Allinge-Sandvig Købstæder, Allinge, Ved Aaen No 71, 75, FT-1801, B7344
Peder Larsen Møller 30 Gift Huusbonde Møllere
Karen 28 Gift hans Kone
Johanne 3 deres Døttre
Marthe 1 deres Døttre
Johan Julius Hansen was born 29. March 1844 in Allinge.
His confirmation was 11. April 1858 in Allinge and that's the last time I can find him in those church records.
Karsten
Citat fra: Tina Hansen Dato 29 Apr 2012 - 18:11
I'm very confused now about the patronymic naming system. Given how it works, I thought it was possible Hans Pedersen could have been his father.
Tina
Tina, glad you came back with more, and especially that middle name (you can see Karsten scrolled through churchbooks to find two boys who are clearly incorrect based on the census alone, before we had that name Julius). I know it's hard to understand what the "helpers" need so bear with the process and don't get discouraged.
About his name: John Hansen said his father's name was Peter Hansen. That could be correct! and normally he would know his father's name. Certainly trusting his information would be the place to start.
Danes began choosing fixed surnames gradually, all the way through the 1800s, as a series of laws were passed and the Danes became increasingly willing to get on board with the government's request that they adopt surnames.
If John had not adopted a fixed surname (the same last name as his father), then that would mean John's last name would be based on his father's first name.
John Hansen would have a father
Hans. But we can't tell from that what the father Hans would have as a last name.
A man named Peder Hansen, same deal - under patronymic naming, he would have a father Hans, but we wouldn't know the father's last name.
Not until Karsten looked it up..... ;D
Citat fra: Karsten Damén Dato 29 Apr 2012 - 19:23
Johan Julius Hansen was born 29. March 1844 in Allinge.
His confirmation was 11. April 1858 in Allinge and that's the last time I can find him in those church records.
Karsten
Tina, we're taking this option seriously because Karsten found an unusual circumstance that would explain that John Hansen could indeed have been a little unclear about his father's name - this John's parents were divorced when he was very young, and he lived with a stepfather.
Searched www.ddd.dda.dk in every amt (amt = Danish county, like a US state) every year for
"Johan Julius" born about 1844. No other boy had those names and that approximate birth year.
This does not prove there is no other Johan Julius Hansen b 1844 in Denmark. But the search does make Johan Julius Hansen of Allinge a likely candidate because only his birth year and names match so far.
Also the search of the amts did not turn up Johan Julius Hansen of Allinge anywhere else, living apart from his family, so indeed it's possible he may have left Denmark.
Again, it's not proof.
Ladies I am overwhelmed (in a good way) by what you have turned up. :) Now am I trying to find a death cert for him and as usual he is elusive. But I thank you so much. Mange tak.
Hello all, hope you are well. To continue -- what is the significance of the first name Hanssine Christine Hansen, Johan Julius' mother? Thank you.
1860
Bornholm, Nørre, Allinge Købstad, Allinge Købstad, , No.78 a, FT-1860, C3545
Navn: Alder: Civilstand: Stilling i husstanden: Erhverv: Fødested:
Mads Peter Wass 38 Gift Skibsroer, Husfader Allinge
Hansine Cirstine Hansen 39 Gift Hans Kone Olsker sogn
Jensine Amalie Wass 11 Ugift Deres Datter Allinge
Marie Bollette Wass 7 Ugift Deres Datter Allinge
Bodel Cathrine Grønbech 75 Enke Mandens Moder Allinge
A traditional naming pattern was for the first son to be named after the father's father; first daughter after his mother; second son after the mother's father; second daughter after the mother's mother. So it's possible Hanssine Christine had a grandmother with that name. Children were also sometimes named after a previous spouse or child in the family who had died. Hanssine is also a feminine form of Hans; girls were sometimes given the feminine form of a male name to be named after a grandfather, father, etc.
Does that answer the question?
Thank you it does answer the question.
Hello again. To summarize:
My Danish g-grandfather, John Julius Hansen, was born in Denmark in 1844 and his father was Peter Hansen. I know this from the marriage certificate to his English wife in 1870. Thanks to the efforts of your researchers, a candidate was identified -- Johan Julius Hansen, born 29 March 1844 in Bornholm (see previous posts).
He was a merchant seaman and first mate examination results are now searchable on the web. A certificate for a John Hansen with his exact birthday, living at the address listed on my g-grandmother's 1891 death certificate is among the certificates but there's a problem: the John Hansen on the certificate said he was born in Copenhagen. Is it possible to check and see if there was a similarly named man born in Copenhagen on 29 March 1844 to Hans Pedersen?
Thanking you in advance,
Tina Hansen
Ah! You've found a record for YOUR John Julius Hansen that gives the same birth date as the boy in Allinge, Bornholm. Wow. That's amazing. Did the record you found include the middle name Julius?
I think you've identified your ancestor.
It's unfortunate about some of the discrepancies, but these kinds of discrepancies do come up. You need reassurance. Volunteers on a genealogy forum won't step up and guarantee these kinds of things - it's not done because there are no guarantees. You yourself must weigh the evidence and find it strong enough to draw a conclusion. At least, I think that's how it works. :P
About John Julius Hansen's father. Remember that John Julius's marriage record states that his father was PETER HANSEN, not Hans Pedersen.
For the benefit of the forum, please post a link - or post a jpg - of the record to which you refer.
As you asked, I did some searching, trying to find a John Julius Hansen born on that date in Copenhagen. I haven't found him. You'll see an example of hits for three searches I did on these links:
http://ddd.dda.dk/asp/Soeg_dk_enkel_sp.asp
http://ddd.dda.dk/asp/Soeg_dk_enkel_sp.asp
http://ddd.dda.dk/asp/Soeg_dk_enkel_sp.asp
Understand that our previous searching also included Copenhagen. No one like your gr-grandfather has so far turned up on that database or on AO (Danish Archives Online).
You can try searching yourself, too. Go to www.ddd.ddd.dk. Select census (Folketaellinger). Under Sog Personer, choose Autocheck af Omrade. (Danish letters are not copying correctly for me, sorry). In the box for Amt: choose Kobenhavn. Search on J% J% Hansen. This will find various versions of his name/middle name/surname. By using % as a "wild card," we don't have to worry about Danish variations of his name such as Johan/Johanne/Jens etc. Search on J% Hansen for various versions of his name without the middle name. Search every way you can think of. To control the number of hits you get, use the other boxes. In the boxes called "Omfatter" "Alle ar," choose = 1860 to get hits for 1860 census only. Your guy should be about age 16 that year. (We have so far not found him in 1860.)
A more difficult but more complete database is AO. You'll find instructions in English for how to use it at the top of the home page of this forum.
http://www.sa.dk/content/us
Many Danish immigrants were said to be born in Copenhagen, even though they weren't. Understandable in some cases and mysterious in others. It may help not to say "John Hansen stated ..." Instead try saying "John Hansen's marriage record stated...." Sometimes the immigrant is not the informant, or he is the informant but he is speaking to someone else who is writing the information down. Etc. So many reasons why discrepancies come up in family history records. The combination of his three names with that exact birth day/month/year makes it highly unlikely (although admittedly not impossible) that anyone else like that exists.
Not much help but hope these comments help a little.
Hello. To answer >Did the record you found include the middle name Julius?< it did not include his middle name which he seemed to use consistently for his personal dealings. I tried to post a photo of his marriage certificate but can't figure out how to upload the jpg. :-[
But as you noted I'm just trying to be thorough and make sure I have the correct person. Will search myself as suggested and THANK YOU for the searching you have done.
Hi Tina. Thanks for the comments about the middle name. About posting the record, I meant the first mate examination results. No worries. Mostly I was curious where you found such a thing. I wonder if the Bornholm genealogy groups would be able to help demonstrate that John Julius of Allinge immigrated?
Oh well the information about the first mate exams comes from Ancestry.com. They have digitized Great Britain, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927. :)
Thanks for the tip about Bornholm genealogy groups. Perhaps there's an English-language group available.
Hello Tina and researchers thankyou for creating this Forum thread.
The research on this thread is correct as this information ties in with our research from a different branch of the family tree relating to Laurits Peter Hansen (1941) who's brother was Johan Julius Hansen (1844)
Laurits Peter Hansen (1941) emigrated to the UK, South East London who was known as (Lawrence Peterson birth place Bornholm date of birth results from UK Census were between 1835 - 1845.
Lawrence's Marriage certificate to Emma R Richardson in 1865 states his dad was called John Petersen (we traced to Hans Jørgen Pedersen) who was a Seaman among various UK census records.
If you would like to exchange contact details please reply back to this post and will send my contact via private message.
Details below in relation to brothers Laurits Peter Hansen and Johan Julius Hansen... sorry about the format...
Name Relation to Laurits and Johan Family side Also known as Date of birth Birth Place ... more information with me.
Lars (????sen) Great Grandad Father
Peder Larsen Grandad Father Peder Larsen Møller 1770 - 1771
Karen Ancher Nan Father Karen Pedersen (Widow) (1850) / Karna (1855) 1771 -1773 & 1783
Marther Pederson Aunt Father Martha (1855 census) 1802-1803
Kristine Pedersen Aunt Father Kjerstina (1855 cenus) Kirsten Johnsdtr (1844 Christening record) 1806 -1809
Hans Jørgen Pedersen Dad Father John Petersen (by Lawrence marrige cert), John Hansen (by Johan J H) 1802 -1804 Allinge
Hansine Kristine Hansen Mum Mother Hansine Christine Hansdatter Aristsen, Hansine Cristine Hansen 1821 Olsker
Laurits Peter Hansen - - 1841 (9th May ) Allinge
Johan Julius Hansen - - John Julius Hansen (marrige cert by Hansen family) 1844 (29th March) Allinge
Petra Madsine Juliane Wass Half Sister Mother 1861 (27 Jan) Allinge
Jensine Amalie Wass Step Sister Step Dad 1849 Allinge
Marie Bollette Wass Step Sister Step Dad 1853
Mads Peter Wass Step Dad Mother Mandens 1822 Allinge
Dorothy Humphries Wife Johan Juilius Hansen 1847 (September) Sunderland, England
John Hansen Son Johan Juilius Hansen
Charles Humphries Hansen Son Johan Juilius Hansen Charles Hansen 1880
Tina Hansen Great Grandaugter Johan Juilius Hansen/Dorothy Humphries
Regards,
Steven Peterson Great Great Grandson of Laurits Peter Hansen - (Lawrence Peterson)