Illiterate Girl?

[Lizz Denis]

Still searching for my Johanne Hansdatter (from marriage record in 1856 Kobenhavn) born c1837 (aged 22 at marriage) who shows up in England married to my great in 1861, of Sjealland (from English census), and absolutely no other details!  I just realized on one of the birth certificates of her children in England there is an X mark for her signature, providing that she cannot write her name.  Was this common?  Does this inadvertently give me additional information about her?  Also, I have been told that the use of Hansdatter as opposed to Hansen in the city provides that she probably came from the countryside and not the city, true?  On her children's birth certificates her maiden name varies from Hansdatter to Hansen to Ansen.  Very many thanks for any thoughts.

[Anne Marie Holck]

Could you please give us the link or tell us, in which church book you have found her (incl. the page number). This will maybe help us find out more about Johanne.

Thank you.

[Mikkel Eide Eriksen]

Hi Lizz

As a general note: The Danish public school system began in 1814 and meant mandatory 7 years of school for all Danish children from age 7-14 (age of lutheran confirmation).

If you can provide her marriage record it may help locate her birth & confirmation records. The church registers for confirmations had a field where the priest would grade the ability & behavior of the child. Some priests have written short notes in the fields, others stuck to the grades.

Regards,
Mikkel

[Ralph Rasmussen]

Take, or give, all the information you have about her marriage and spouse.  If you actually have the marriage record citation it would save submitting the information you do have to Family Search, a free site, to find the marriage record.

The marriage record can contain a remarkable fund of details.  One or another of them could lead to her birth /baptism or her confirmation record.

[Lizz Denis]

Johanne Hansdatter  married Thomas Heiggs (should be Higgs) on 19 December 1858 at the Church of the Trinitatis. (Marriage record at archives online: Amt Kobenhavn, Herred Sokkelund, Sogn Trinitatis, Viede 1858-1882, Opslag 37.) On her marriage record she is aged 22.  I've seen both copies of the marriage record, the only difference is Jens Madsen's address - one has the old Street name and the other the matri number.

They both live at Rosenborggade 213 and their best men are Jens Madsen, waiter, Noerrebro 36 V2 B2 (Tømrergade) and L.P. Petersen, beerhouse keeper, Ny Vestergade 212.  Johanne is not at this address in 1855 or 1860.  I do not know if any of the people at the address are possibly related to her.

Lars Petersen baptized 1805 comes from Plejelt, Tikøb, Frederiksborg, Denmark.  I havent found Jens Madsen (that I know of).  Johanne and her husband have left Denmark by 1860.  They have children in England, their birth/baptism records give no other details about her, the English census provides no other details about her other than she was born in Sjealland, another says (according to ancestry.com) Meds but this is incorrect, there is no such place.

Been searching for birth for years.  Just checking in again.

[Lizz Denis]

Could you please give us the link or tell us, in which church book you have found her (incl. the page number). This will maybe help us find out more about Johanne.

Thank you.

Johanne Hansdatter  married Thomas Henry Higgs (also spelled Heiggs and Aiggs on Danish records) on 19 December 1858 at the Church of the Trinitatis. (Marriage record at archives online: Amt Kobenhavn, Herred Sokkelund, Sogn Trinitatis, Viede 1858-1882, Opslag 37.) On her marriage record she is aged 22. 

They both live at Rosenborggade 213 and their best men are Jens Madsen, waiter, Noerrebro 36 V2 B2 and L.P. Petersen, beerhouse keeper, Ny Vestergade 212.  Johanne is not at this address in 1855 or 1860.  I do not know if any of the people at the address are possibly related to her.

Best men were Jens Madsen, waiter, Noerrebro (Nørrebro)
36 V2 B2 and L.P. Petersen, beerhouse keeper, Ny Vestergade 212.

tjeneren waiter
tjener servant

[Mikkel Eide Eriksen]

Hi Lizz

That's a tough one. If only they had stayed in Denmark until the 1860 census, there would be a birth place mentioned there. From their names, the best men don't appear to be relations, but they could be. It's possible she worked at Petersen's beerhouse. Note, his name is simply "L. Petersen", no middle initial.

Links to the church records:

Hovedministerialbog:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=206272#206272,39158278

Kontraministerialbog:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=157777#157777,26483908

I don't have a good idea for further searches right now, but I'll try and think on it.

Regards,
Mikkel

[Ralph Rasmussen]

An almost blind search can be narrowed a bit.  But so far just failed leads.

The record pretends to give ages to the nearest quarter of a year.

Zealand is a small fraction of 1830's Denmark, at least in area.

Johanne ostensibly hasn't additional given names, as the marriage page mentions additional given names in several entries.

Right or wrong, do any of the records or family lore suggest a birthday in the fall for Johanne?

E.g. Johanne Hansdatter born in Orø, Tuse, Holbæk is again in the census there in 1860.

[Lizz Denis]

An almost blind search can be narrowed a bit.  But so far just failed leads.

The record pretends to give ages to the nearest quarter of a year.

Zealand is a small fraction of 1830's Denmark, at least in area.

Johanne ostensibly hasn't additional given names, as the marriage page mentions additional given names in several entries.

Right or wrong, do any of the records or family lore suggest a birthday in the fall for Johanne?

E.g. Johanne Hansdatter born in Orø, Tuse, Holbæk is again in the census there in 1860.

Thanks for your reply.  The odds of finding her with such a tiny piece of information is almost impossible.  I have tracked down descendents and thus far I know more than they do (all knew their was a Danish woman though).  There are even two church books (which is why I know L.P. Petersen is Lars Petersen of Thikob who I traced back to his birth trying to find a connection).  Jens Madsen has been problematic to find.  Anyway, both church books say the same thing, no more, no less.  Thomas Heiggs age is incorrect tho, he is only really 18, so is she truthful about her age?  I don't know.  On one other England census she said she came from a place called Meds - there is no such place.  I have been following several Johanne's through the census records waiting to see who I have missing in 1860 and possibly that will be her.  I do appreciate your thoughts.

[Lizz Denis]

Hi Lizz

That's a tough one. If only they had stayed in Denmark until the 1860 census, there would be a birth place mentioned there. From their names, the best men don't appear to be relations, but they could be. It's possible she worked at Petersen's beerhouse. Note, his name is simply "L. Petersen", no middle initial.

Links to the church records:

Hovedministerialbog:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=206272#206272,39158278

Kontraministerialbog:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=157777#157777,26483908

I don't have a good idea for further searches right now, but I'll try and think on it.

Regards,
Mikkel

Many thanks Mikkel for your reply.  I knew Lars name because there are two marriage records for her and one has that additional information about Lars and that Jens Madsen's address which is Tømrergade on one and the Matri number on the other, but they are the same address, but nothing more on either record.  It's almost as if no one knows her.  He was working in Copenhagen installing the new gas street lights.  Thank you for your time.

[Anette Eriksen]

Hi there.

What about the first names of her Children? They were often named after their grand parents. That could narrow down the candidates - even though their names were probably fitted into english versions.

Best Regards
Anette Eriksen

[Lizz Denis]

Hi there.

What about the first names of her Children? They were often named after their grand parents. That could narrow down the candidates - even though their names were probably fitted into english versions.

Best Regards
Anette Eriksen

Someone else said that, but I could not make them fit: Thomas Albert (Thomas is a common family name in the male line), Hannah Caroline (Caroline was the name of Thomas' mother), John Henry, Jane Alice, Frederick Edward.  The other names are uncommon for this family.

[Laila Tøttrup]

This old thread is about the same persons:

http://www.dis-danmark.dk/forum/read.php?11,508678,508678

Somewhere in a census, Johanne Hansdatters birthplace is Sokkelund - this should mean, that she is born i the Copenhagen area.

And do you have a link to the record, where her birthplace is Meds?

Vh. Laila Tøttrup

[Aase Madsen]

Måske er der flere oplysninger i lysningsprotokollen på Stadsarkivet i København.

Perhaps there is more information in publish / banns Protocol on the City Archives in Copenhagen.

[Mikkel Eide Eriksen]

Hi Lizz

The original post that Laila links to appears to have been translated from English to Danish. It says that in 1861 she appears in the London census with a birth place starting with an M, possibly M...ek..., and the 1891 census with the Sokkelund birth place.

If you have access to the 1861 census and can supply an image of it, it might be possible for one of us to read and translate it to a Danish place. Unfortunately, it doesn't mention the specific location from the 1861 London census.

Regards
Mikkel

PS: You may also have luck contacting Sylvia Mast, her email is visible by clicking on the name ("snabel a" = @).

[Barbara Bate]

Attached is a clip from the 1861 UK Census. The area is Plumstead, Kent, District 13. Plumstead is on the SE outskirts of London. Johanne is recorded as Hannah in this case.

Barbara

[vedhæfting slettet af admin]

[Eva Morfiadakis]

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=203903#203903,38679276

Here is a Johanne Hansdatter born on March 9, 1837 in Greve which is just outside Copenhagen. It is just a guess in view of the place of birth in Census 1861. That may be a misinterpretation of the Danish name.

Johanne Hansdatter is too common a name in Denmark.

Eva M

[Mikkel Eide Eriksen]

Hi

Surprisingly, the priest in Greve has been extremely good about maintaining the Jævnførelsesregister & Af- & Tilgangslister. The girl that Eva has found is indexed as 177-13, and can be seen departing for Thorslunde on November 1, 1854, 18 years old (opslag 112 no. 36):
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=203903#203903,38679364

Arrival in Thorslunde (opslag 105 no. 29):
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=206231#206231,39146575

Departing Thorslunde for Glostrup May 1, 1855 (opslag 22 no. 9):
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=206231#206231,39146492

So the process is following the girl (Glostrup arrivals, then departures, etc) and seeing where she ends up, but she is pretty much travelling in a straight line towards east, or in the direction of Copenhagen proper (Greve -> Torslunde -> Glostrup). It could well be the right girl...

Regards,
Mikkel

PS Note there is also a girl baptized in Greve the year after, indexed as 177-18, who departs for Reerslev on May 1, 1858, 20 years old (opslag 114 no. 9):
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=203903#203903,38679366

[Eva Morfiadakis]

http://www.danishfamilysearch.dk/sogn3068/churchbook/source120023/opslag12751710

A child born in 1869 Emily Alvilda Higgs in Great Grimsby. Parents: Thomas Higgs, gasfitter, and Hansine Andrea Petersen.

Were Johanne and Thomas perhaps divorced? Or were there two Thomas Higgs,  both of them gasfitters?

Eva M

[Eva Morfiadakis]

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=206259#206259,39153849

It is another Thomas Higgs. He and his wife are living in Copenhagen. He is now a brass caster.

Eva M

[Laila Tøttrup]

Johanne Hansdatter from Greve arrives in Glostrup 3. Maj 1855:

http://www.danishfamilysearch.dk/sogn537/churchbook/source7355/opslag2548856

Departing 1855 - but with no placenames:

http://www.danishfamilysearch.dk/sogn537/churchbook/source7355/opslag2548964

Departing again 1856 to Roskilde:

http://www.danishfamilysearch.dk/sogn537/churchbook/source7355/opslag2548968

Vh. Laila Tøttrup

[Grethe Leerbech]

When I read the notes in the census I think that at his name also stands something as "mede" or "meke" after "Denmark".
And more important after the "med" word stands someting, which could be the birthplace or at least a place in Denmark, but I cannot read it, can anybody else do that???

I read something as "Gop or s lap or k/h/fs Goslak/Goplap/Goplak ....

Greetnings
Grethe

[Grethe Leerbech]

If you look upin www.ddd.dda.dk an search for johanne hansdatter in both 1855 and 1860 census' there is a girl in the 1855 census born in Sokkelund, Ballerup:
Johanne Hansdatter, 20 years as a servant in a farm in Sokkelund, Rødovre, Islemark.
Its says she is born in Ballerup. Hasn't looked it up.

and she doesn't appear in the 1860 census, so as the girl in Greve it could be her.

[Eva Morfiadakis]

T. Higgs it says was born in London St. Marys. Daughter Hannah was born in Poplar, I guess.

Eva M

[Grethe Leerbech]

Okay That was the dates of he daughter-and she is born in England. The x at the census means that the daughter could not read, not the mother, see the first note.

I have tried to study the "med" once more and have thought it maybe could be Melby in Frederiksborg Amt. There is a Johanne Hansdatter but she is baptised 28.7. 1841 and probably born in jan.or febr.  (Melby, Strø, Frederiksborg amt, kirkebog 1837-1858

What do other says, could it be Melby????

[Barbara Bate]

Hi, Grethe... No, the X at the end of the daughter's entry doesn't mean she couldn't read. They didn't record how literate people were in the census. Poplar, where she was born, was in Middlesex at that time and it was generally abbreviated to Mddx - with the x as super-script: Mdd^x Hope that's worked! Super-script was used a lot then, for instance eleventh would be 11^th , second 2^nd, third 3^rd, first 1^st.

I think you're right about Melby, though. Enumerators for the censuses in England weren't necessarily good at spelling and, if she couldn't read or write, perhaps Melbe was near enough as a 'sounds like'.

BTW, Thomas Robert Higgs was the father of Johanna's Thomas Higgs.

Maybe this 15 year old mystery is coming to an end!

[Eva Morfiadakis]

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=153664#153664,25611074

Johanne Hansdatter in Melby was born on 8 July 1841 and baptized on 11 July.


Her confirmation in 1855. The question is did she leave for Copenhagen?

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=205014#205014,38898745

Eva M

[Eva Morfiadakis]

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=205015#205015,38899154

There is a Johanne Hansdatter (no. 13) 16 who leaves home 30 April 1857 to go to Frederiksborg.

I don't think it is her. She is too young.

Eva M

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hej all
Johanne leaves Melby in 1856 for Frederiksværk. it says she is 15 year.
Unfortunately are the Frederiksværk churchbook missing up to 1908, så we cannot see when or if she left this place or has been married there f.ex.

Our only possibility is too get someone too look in the "lysningsprotokollen" in  statsarkivet in København, they might be there.
Other possibilities is his allowence to work in Denmark sometimes they also writes the name of the wife
What about passenger lists from denmark to england. I think she sailed with boat and she must have emigrated. Are there no emigration lists to England?
I don't know if there are some emigration lists in the statsarkivet, in 1860.
I think people should have a kind of passports.!!!  

What is written about her death?

 mvh
Grethe

[Eva Morfiadakis]

I don't think it is her in 1856. If you look in the comparison list (hovedministerialbogen) her birth and confirmation are registered but not her moving-out. The list seems to be well-kept.

Sorry the girl leaving in 1857 is going to Frederiksvaerk. Didn't notice there are two No. 7.

The "lysningsprotokollen" for Trinitatis start in 1859, as far as I could see.

There are no passenger lists from Scandinavia to England unless the person would go to the US.

I have been told once that Copenhagen had a different system as regards working permits and these lists have not been kept.

Frederiksværk should be in Vinderød sogn.

Eva M