Mendel Alexander Mendelson/MENDELSOHN (1795-12/08/1869)

[Martine Viannay]

Bonjour,

I am looking for some informations about Mendel Alexander Mendelson/MENDELSOHN (1795 ?-12/08/1869) married Sara FLINTOE (29/10/1789-22/09/1875) 01/05/1819 à Frederiksberg kirke, Copenhagen.

He had been a dentist. He passed his exams in 1820. He divorced  in 1824. Married again Sophie POSEN. In 1847, he lived in Altona. In 1850 in Copenhagen again until he died in 1869.
http://www.rudiritter.de/buch3.html
His tomb is in Mosaisk Nordre Kirkegård, Copenhagen.

1- His birth is not at  all certain, and I don't know his place of birth.

3- I would like to find at least his parents, if it is possible. But may be he was born in Altona ?

Thank you in advance for helping me.

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

Bonsoir Martine

I searched him in Kraks Vejviser (directory) 1860 to see where to look for him in the census:
http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1860#341/z
Mendelson, M.A., forhen Tandlæge hos Christian den 8de, Viingaardstr(æde) 21 (144), Hj. af Sqvalderg(ade).
                        (former dentist for King Christian 8.)

Census 1860: http://ao.salldata.dk/vis.php?bsid=10164&side=134&kb=Folketælling: København, Indre by, Øster 1860&zoom=&height=717
at 2nd floor M.A.Mendelson, 68, born in Kbhvn (København) and wife Sofie, 56, born in Hamburg

Here he is with his parents at the census 1801:

København, København (Staden), Rosenborg Kvarter, Rosenborg Kvarter, Matr. 32, 149,
Alexander Mendel      48   Gift   Huusbond    Handlende (tradesman)
Regine Getzel            40   Gift   hans Kone
Mendel Alexander         7   Ugift  deres Søn
Grethe Green              21  Ugift  Tjenestepige

Alexander Mendel's death:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?epid=17117291#153724,25618745
Aar 1814 den 10de Januarii anmeldtes det, at (was announced that)
Alexander Mendel i Gaar Aftes (yesterday evening) i en Alder af (in the age of) 57 Aar
er død af Brystsyge (died from 'breast disease' (pneumonia, maybe tuberculosis)).

Regine Getzel's death:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?epid=17117291#153725,25618898
204.  (died)1817 24 August (buried) 25 August
Regine Mendel   Commissionair Alexander Mendels Enke (widow), paa Frideriks Hospital  65 Aar
Død af Vattersot (died from dropsy/ascites)

I did not find MAM's birth/baptism in the book from Mosaic community around 1792 and neither the marriage
of his parents.
So he was son of Mendel, i.e. got the surname Mendelson/Mendelsohn.

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Bonsoir Ole,

Thank you so much. I were looking for these informations as much as I could without success.


I work with my danish dictionary and it is difficult for me to explore the parish registers etc
MAM was a mystery for me.I thought he could be have a link with the german family of Moses Mendelssohn but now I don't think any more.
May be he was from Hamburg, his second wife was from Hamburg.

- What does it mean, please :"commissionnair". Regine Mendel worked in this hospital or died there ?

If you can continue to help me again, I am looking for his daughter's birth/baptism :
-Caroline Marie FLINTOE/ FLINTOU/ FLINTHOUG (1819/1821-1920) x JG BOYTLER junior

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

"Commissionair" is a person who has something in commission or finishes deals for other persons.
Regine died in the hospital as a patient there.


At the census 1787 Landemærket 106 in København I found this:
Regine Getzel    28 unmarried  siblings     of the mosaic community
Birgitthe Getzel  26       -             -
Rebecca Getzel*  9        -             -
                      * census 1801 it's prob. her who is married (age 24) to Nicolai Knudsen goldsmith.

They are maybe born somewhere else.
I'll see if I can find Caroline Marie.
If you need any guidance about the parish registers, please ask me.

Ole

[Inge Nissen]

København, København (Staden), Bredgade (Ulige numre), No. 23. Matrikel 195, Kjælder, 2, FT-1885, C8086
Name: Age: Marital status: Position in household: Occupation: Birth place:

Caroline Marie Boytler f. Klents 62 Enke Husmoder Vildthandler Kjøbenhavn  
Fanny Petrine Caroline Boyter 31 Ugift Datter  Kjøbenhavn  
Rosa Anna Caroline Boyter 24 Ugift Datter  Kjøbenhavn  
Frederik Christiansen 21 Ugift Tjenestetyende  Holbæk  
Anna Beata Søssing 32 Ugift Tjenestetyende  Delsdorf Pr. Magdeburg  


http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1860#82/z
Bøytler, J. G. Frugt- og Vildthdlr. Kong. Nytorv 34 (356)

http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1885#105/z
Bredgade 23K. Bøytler Vildthdl. Frm
                     Bøytler C. M. Enkefrue [widow]

http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1889#116/z
Bredgade 23K. Bøytler Vildthdl. Frm

[Inge Nissen]

http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1865#256/z
Bøytler A M enke e. Frugt og Vildhdl Østergade 52 K
Bøytler C J Frugt og Vildtdhdlske Frm
Bøytler J G sen. Østergade 52
Bøytler J. G. Frugt og Vildthdl Kong. Nyt. 34 [Kongens Nytorv]
Bøytler Wilhm. Frugt og Vildthdlske Frm
Bøytler J G sen. Østergade 52

http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1865#227/z
Østergade 52 K
Bøytler A fh Frugt og Vildthdlske
Bøytler C J & W Frugt og Vildthandlersker

http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1870#245/z
Østergade 52 K
Bøytler A fh. Frugthdlske
Bøytler C J & W Frugt- og Vildh.

http://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/Kraks-Vejviser-1875#326/z
Østergade 52 K
Bøytler A fh. Frugthdlske
Bøytler C & W Frugt- og Vildh.
Bøytler J G Frugt- og Vildthdl.

[Inge Nissen]

Frugt og Vildthandler = Fruit- and Game Dealer
Frugt og Vildthandlersker = female Fruit- and Game Dealer

[Ole Westermann]

I found Caroline Marie's birth and baptism at the Maternity Hospital:
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis.php?bsid=203405&side=3&kb=KB: København, Sokkelund, Fødselsstiftelsen 1821-1824 F (HM)&zoom=&height=717

1821
Child 120  Mother 130  born d 6te Febr bapt. d 10de Febr
Caroline Marie
Forældre (Parents): Mendel Alexander Mendelson, og Hustr(u) (wife) Sara Flinthoe.

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

First thank you very very much Inge for all the elements you give me about the BOYTLER family.
You can see in Bredgade 8 Copenhagen the BOYTLER junior's last shop with his name still written above the door.

Thank you Ole for the Caroline FLINTOE's birth. It is a treasure. If you could find her death !
She was the grandmother of my beloved danish grandmother.

And for the census 1787 and the meaning of commissionnaer

So now I have some news. I have found the Alexander MENDEL and Regine GETZEL' tumbs at Mosaisk Nordre Kirkegaard.
tom.brondsted.dk/mosaiskregister/?lastname=Mendel
He was called Ziskind LEIDESDORF/LEIDESDORFF.

I think his real name was Alexander Mendel LEIDESDORF. I think that Ziskind was may be a nickname.

Then I found a dialogue on your DIS forum on the 02/09/04 and at the end on the 10/07/05 appears the name : Alexander MELDEL +1814,11.Jan
http://www.dis-danmark.dk/forum/read.php?1,38811,38850
There is a lot of informations in danish, but my translation is not good.
I am certain you are abble to gather the pieces. Many thanks.
Martine

[Ole Westermann]

I have looked around and found this:

Here is Caroline Marie Bøytler in the burial protocol 1919:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!?collection=5&item=67871

No 5731
Fredagen den 21 Novb Kl.2 begraves
Enke efter Hofvildthandler
Caroline Marie Bøytler, født Flintoe
Fødselsdag og Aar 6/2 1821 Fødested Kbhvn
98 Aar    Bopæl Hellerup      død d. 16/11
Enkestand
af Senilitas, Degeneratio Cordis
   fra Assistens Kapel
   til Assistens Kirkegaard

No 5731
Friday the 21st of Novb at 2 o'clock is buried
Widow after Royal poulterer (in French: marchand de gibier a la cour)
Caroline Marie Bøytler, born Flintoe
Birtday and -year 6/2 1821 Place of birth Kbhvn
98 y.o.    Adress Hellerup      died 16/11
Widow
(died from) Senilitas, Degeneratio Cordis  (senility, heart degeneration)
   from Assistens Chapel
   to Assistens Cemetary

And here from Hellerup, where she died:
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis.php?bsid=150938&side=160&kb=KB: København, Sokkelund, Hellerup (Gentofte) 1919-1930 D (KM)&height=717
So she died in Gardes Alle 22 in Hellerup, where she lived her last years.
Remarks: Skifte (probate) fra Nordre Birk af 17/11 19

She had during many years (at least 1891-1916) lived in Nørre Farimagsgade 45B (and 47) (Kraks Vejviser)

So like her grandmother Cecilie Flinthoe, born Bentsen, who died 21.jun.1841, 91 y.o., she got very old.
She (CM) had a brother Jacob Edvard Flinthoe, prob. born 1-2 years before her, who was named after
Cecilie Flinthoe's husband Jacob Edvard Flinthoe, who had been a founder (French: fondeur).

I will return to your other question later.
Bonne nuit !

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Bonjour Ole,

Mille mercis. Your informations concerning Caroline FLINTOE are more than full.

You found also:
- Cecilie FLINTHOE x Abraham FLINTHOUG ( "fondeur" in Norway, he became "garde à pied" in Copenhagen). He was a norwegian.
http://www.dis-danmark.dk/forum/read.php?7,597460,597507

And Jacob Edvard FLINTHOE, the Caroline's brother.

I know them a little and I will ask you some shorter questions later.

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

Bonjour Martine

From the DIS forum 10/07-05 by Eva Ervø I read:
Quoted from a book (printed 1908) with extracts from different church registers on Sjælland, Lolland and Falster:
Alexander (Leidesdorf) Mendel, Guldtrækker*
~1. Edel who died 12.Juli 1766
~2. Jetthe Cantor, widow, born Levy who died 5.Febr.1792
       Elkan Mendel and Sara (~ dr.med. Simon Polack) are prob. children of this marriage

But this can't impossibly be correct !
Alexander Mendel was 48 y.o. at the census 1801 i København and said to be 57 at his death 1814.
That estimates his birth to be c. 1753-57.
So it's clear, that he cannot have had a wife Edel, who died in 1766, when he was c. 9-13 y.o. !!!

About Jetthe Cantor:
http://tom.brondsted.dk/mosaiskebegravelser/?details&id=1306&kgrd=1
she had been ~ Simon Goldstikker, and she was first buried 14.apr.1796 !!

So in my eyes this clearly kills the suggestions from DIS in 2005 !
From your link http://tom.brondsted.dk/mosaiskebegravelser/?details&id=2953&kgrd=1
I see that Alexander Mendel's hebrew name was Ziskind Leidesdorf

* a gold wire drawer is a person who makes gold threads, gold laces (French: galons) etc.
  But I think that this profession is incorrectly put on Alexander Mendel.

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

I am sorry for having given you a wrong track.

I wonder the use of this hebrew name LEIDERDORF. Was it his real name ? So may be a part of his name. So Alexander and Mendel were his first names...

At that time, there were pogroms in Copenhagen. Was it the reason why he didn't use LEIDERDORF ?

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

There was a socalled 'Jødefejde' (Jew fight) in 1813, but it was mostly in writing.
Then there was a new 'Jødefejde' from sept. 1819 to jan. 1820, probably inspired by the antisemitic
riots in Germany starting in August 1819. There were attacks on jewish shops and persons.

From http://diggy.ruc.dk:8080/retrieve/10419 page 68 ff in translation:

Jewish name habits have been as different as the
jewish cultures. There has been a tendency to, that jews took names
from the dominating and surrounding culture. But it has changed
with periods, where the names in reverse have been 'hebrewed'.
Surnames came rather late after european pattern.

Maybe the jews used the hebrew/jiddisch name 'internally', but outwards in the society the other name.
I don't know from where the name Leidesdorf came. The German 'dorf' means village.
So maybe the Leidesdorf jews originally came from a village named Leide/Leiden or something like that.

By the way: Where was Sara Flinthoe born/baptized 29.oct.1789 ?

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Merci beaucoup. I understand better.

Sara FLINTOE (29/10/1789-22/09/1875) born in Copenhagen.
Her brothers was born in Copenhagen:
1. Jacob Edvard  (11/09/1777-)

2. Jacob Edvard (1780-16/02/1837), architect in Norway x Cecilie Jensen Bentsen
https://nkl.snl.no/Jacob_Edward_Flinto

3. Niels Jens (28/10/1785-)

4. Johannes (29/07/1787-27/01/1870), painter and teacher in Norway
https://nbl.snl.no/Johannes_Flintoe

-I'd like very much to find his tumb in Copenhagen where he died. He died at friends', at a painter called WIIG. I was looking for it but I didn't find. Probably it'll be impossible.

- So Caroline FLINTOE had got a brother as you saw.
Jacob Edward FLINTOE (25/02/1820-20/04/1853). When he died, I read that there was an epidemic of cholera in Copenhagen, during these months and in this area. I'd like to know if it was the reason of his death.
A bientôt
Martine

[Martine Viannay]

I have forgotten to answer to your question :
Sara FLINTOE was baptized at Garnison kirke, probably because his father was a soldier.

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

In fact I had looked there yesterday, but did not find her on Oct.29:

Sara     9.nov.1789 Abraham Nielsen > NB Flintoug, Klokkestøber<  & Cecilie Marie Jensdtr
                              Efter senere Opgivelse var Faderens Navn   
                              Flintoug og ikke Nielsen     (After later statement the father's name was Flintoug and not Nielsen)
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis.php?bsid=150065&side=43&kb=KB: København, Sokkelund, Garnison 1784-1810 F (EM)&height=717

Census 1801
København, København (Staden), Nørre Kvarter, Nørre Kvarter, , 615, FT-1801, A5031
   living with goldsmith Johan Kongsbak
Abraham Nielsen    51  Gift      Almisse     (French: aumône)
Cecilie Marie          54  Gift      g Abraham N.
Jacob                    23  Ugift     Mursvend  (stonemason)
Johannes               14  Ugift    Fader Abraham N
Sara                     12  Ugift        -        -        -

Johannes Flintoe in the burial protocol 1870:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!?collection=5&item=122394
No 237
Wednesday 2 Februar 2 o'clock is buried
painter (Kunstmaler) Johannes Flintoe
83 y.o. lived Vesterbrogade 92   died 27 Januar from age
Unmarried       from the chapel at the cemetary
                      Assistens Cemetary, Trinitatis dep.

Sara Flintoe in the burial protocol:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!?collection=5&item=126641
No.4067
Tuesday 28 Septbr at 1 o'clock is buried
Widow Sara Flintoe
85 y.o.  Addr: Norgesgade 20   Died 22 Sept. from age
from the chapel at Assistens Cemetary
  to Helligaands dep., Ass. Cem. 

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Merci, merci. It is fantastic. I hope that is not too much work for you.
I am very glad to know where they had been buried. If the tumbs still exist, do you think there is a map of the tumbs ?

You give me many informations. As usual, I have some questions for tomorrow :
- Census 1801
It is written next to Abraham FLINTHOUG : "Almisse" (aumône). Why does it mean ? Is it because he was a poor man ?

- I don't know how to manage or to get into the website of Kobenhavn arkiv.

Bonsoir
Martine

[Ole Westermann]

Well, I think it's interesting to do this detective work.
I'm a pensionist and live alone, as my wife died 20 years ago, and my 2 daugthers live in Copenhagen with
their families, less than an hour from here.

I don't think the tombs at Assistens Cem. exist any longer, but you never know.
There are only maps with tombs of wellknown/famous people.

In 1801 Abraham was a poor man, probably also a debilitated man.

If you with 'the website of Kobenhavn arkiv' mean the burial protocols:

Go to https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/ and choose 'Kilder' (sources).
Bottom right you click 'DIS-Arkivalielister', and at the bottom you click 'Begravelsesprotokoller 1861-1940'.
Then there is a name index for men (mænd) and women (kvinder).
See the actual time period and letter for the surname, ex. for Johannes Flintoe (died 1870) it's the line with
1861-1870 (you don't need to click that) and going to the right, click the number 57 at the letter F.
Then the index is opened. Click the arrow to the right until you reach 1870, and there you see that Johannes
Flintoe has the number 237 (remember the number).
Now you close 'Kildeviseren' at the top, and you are now back to the name indexes.
Above them to the right click 'Til Protokoloversigt', where you see all years with numbers.
In 1875 are all numbers from 1-5235. Click the numbers, and you are at page 1 of 890.
There are 6 numbers at each page, so no. 237 should be on about page 40. He is on page 41.

Bonsoir
Ole

[Ole Westermann]

Martine

I found the death and burial of Jacob Edvard Flintoe:

http://ao.salldata.dk/vis.php?bsid=157781&side=70&kb=KB: København, Sokkelund, Trinitatis 1851-1858 D (KM)&height=717
1853 nr 218 died 20 Apr (from Emollitio cerebri*), buried Wednesday 27 Apr at 11½ o'clock
       Jacob Edvard Flinto    Assistent , unmarried, Alm(indelig) Hospital, 30 y.o. (correctly 33)
       Begraves i nykjøbt Eiendomsgravsted.    P.l..?  5 Rbdr Liigv(ogn)
       (Buried in newbought private cemetary plot.  ....  5 rigsbankdaler hearse (French: corbillard))
       So he died at the hospital and got a fine burial in Assistens Cemetary.

       * 'brain softness' developed on basis of arteriotrombosis

The great cholera epidemic started June 11, 1853 and faded out in October 1853; 7219 were reported sick,
and 4737 of them died (65,6%).

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Bonjour Ole,

So I understand. Thanks to give your time. I am a pensionist as well, married with Hubert living in Brittany and we have got 6 children (3 sons and 3 daughters) everywhere in France. I have written the history of my french family and now of my danish and norwegian families for them. My grandmother left me the love of Danmark, and I am always very interested in better know your country and danish people.
I suppose your own genealogy is entirely finished.

- Then Jacob Edward didn't die of cholera. I am not a good detective. Thanks
He was unmarried. I have found a Jacob Edward married, certainly his first cousin, the son of Jacob Edward architect living in Christiania.

-Abraham FLINTOE : debilitated. Why do you think that ? What do you mean ? Afskediget : congédié, renvoyé (in french).

- Your explanations were perfect, and I managed very easily BUT page 41 n°237, I don't see J.FLINTOE. Certainly I made a mistake somewhere...

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

I am sorry I gave you the wrong place for Johannes, as I gave you the year 1875:
It is on the year 1870 with the numbers 1-3712, and he is on page 43.

Death and burial of Abraham Nielsen Flinthoug in 1802:
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis.php?bsid=150084&side=99&kb=KB: København, Sokkelund, Garnison 1800-1814 D (EM)&zoom=&height=717
Abraham Nielsen Flintauw
Died 28 Aug. (from Vattersot (French: hydropisie)), buried 31.Aug
Dismissed 'garde au pied', died in Ved Vestervold 142, 51 y.o.

So that's why I think that he the year before allready was sick and unable to work (debilitated).

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Bonsoir Ole,

Thank you for your further information about Abraham FLINTOE.

Some other questions :

-Why it is written in the burial protocol, for instance :
J. FLINTOE...Assistens kikegaard, "Trinitatis dep".
What does it mean ? A service in Trinitatis kirke or it is the name of a part of the cemetary ?

Sara FLINTOE...Assistens kirkegaard...Helligands dep. ?

-https://nkl.snl.no/Jacob_Edward_Flinto
If this Jacob Edvard FLINTO,  who is he ? a first norvegian cousin ?

Thanks in advance
Martine

[Ole Westermann]

Bonsoie Martine

In the early days there were cemetaries near/close to the churches in the center of København.
Time by time there was no more room for new burials there, so a new one was created outside the old
town, and it was named Assistens Kirkegård, prob. because it should 'assist' the old cemetaries.
And I suggest that each church/parish in the center got their 'department' in Assistens Kirkegård.

So the ceremony for J.FLINTOE took place in Trinitatis church, and then the coffin was brought to the
Trinitatis dep. on Assistens Kirkegård. Similar for Sara, who came from Helligaands parish.

From your posting 21 Feb 2016 - 19.35:
Sara FLINTOE (29/10/1789-22/09/1875) born in Copenhagen.
Her brothers was born in Copenhagen:
1. Jacob Edvard  (11/09/1777-)

2. Jacob Edvard (1780-16/02/1837), architect in Norway x Cecilie Jensen Bentsen
https://nkl.snl.no/Jacob_Edward_Flinto

I did not find any Jacob Edvard baptized 1780 +/- 1 year in Garnison, so I think that it was
1. Jacob Edvard  (11/09/1777-) who married Cecilie Jensen Bentsen and became an architect in Norway.
The link says, that he was educated as stonemason in København, and it is him you see with his parents
in the 1801 census above, 23 y.o. stonemason.

And there was no Jacob Edvard born ca. 1780 !!

By the way:
I have found the probate after JOHANNES FLINTOE beginning in 1870. Do you know this probate?
He was a rather wealthy man.

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Thank you Ole, you explain very clearly. It is  interesting to understand how worked the burials.

- Problably my link about Jacob Edvard FLINTOE was wrong ; I am sorry.

I had found :
father : Jacob Edvard FLINTOE

mother : Elise Frederikke Kjerulff

son : Johan Edvard FLINTOE 02/11/1849 Trinitatis Bapt 09/11/1849

Who are they ? It is a mystery. A first cousin of Jacob Edvard died in 1853 ?


- No. I don't know the probate. And what is it a probate ?

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

A probate (in Danish: skifte) is in French: un partage.
When a person dies, his/her belongings are registrated, evaluated and divided among the hiers (French: héritiers).

I had noticed Jacob Edvard Flintoe ~ Elise Frederikke Kjerulff.
I will take a look at it.

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Johannes FLINTOE had given all his paintings and may be others things at the Anders Larsen WIIG family who cares him untill he died.

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

I have looked at the baptiism of Johan Edvard Flintoe born 2.nov.1849.
He is born as a socalled illegitimate child, as the parents are not married (and they never got married !).
The father Jacob Edvard FLINTOE is the same JEF, who died in 1853 as unmarried. Brother to Sara Flintoe.

Ole

[Martine Viannay]

Thank you,Ole.
So this time, it was a good track.

- Do you think we can find this child somewhere ? There was the last FLINTOE. His father was the Caroline's brother.
I couldn' t find anymore Elise KJERULFF...

Martine

[Ole Westermann]

I didn't find any of them in censuses or church records; may be like looking for a needle in a haystack.
They may have moved to any parish in København (or elsewhere !), or maybe died.

Ole