Help with my reasoning

[Ric Rasmussen]

I have two families that I am trying to separate.  Both husbands are named Peder Hansen and both wives are named Mette Kirstine Nielsdatter.  They were married 2 year apart (1804 and 1806) in the same (Fanefjord) parish.

The first Peder Hansen is the son of Hans Mogensen and I can follow his information throughout his life.  I don't have birth information on the second Peder Hansen.

His (the second Peder Hansen) marriage record (in the Fanefjord Parish) says he came from Lind in the Damsholte Parish (next door).
He shows up in the 1834 Census in Dame (where his wife was from) and is 62 years old.  The first Peder shows up in the 1834 Census with the last name Mogensen and in Vollerup so I know I am following the correct Peder Hansen.  He (the second Peder Hansen) then shows up in the 1840, 1845, and 1850 censuses along with his wife.  In 1850, he is 78 and his wife is 72.  The were in Dame or Dame By in all of these.  His death record shows he died 13 Apr 1859 at age 90 in Dame.

Using all this information, I have deduced that he had to have been born between 1769 and 1772.  I searched the years 1768 to 1773 inclusive in the Fanefjord Parish.  The only Peder Hansen I found was actually a son of Hans Mogensen.  Since his brother (the first Peder Hansen in this story) was born in 1778 and has the same name, I have assumed that this Peder Hansen born to Hans Mogensen in 1773 died before 1778.

Since his marriage record said he (the second Peder Hansen) was from the Damsholte Parish, I looked through the years 1768 to 1773 inclusive in the Damsholte Parish and only found one Peder Hansen.  He was christened 25 Sep 1768.  He parents were from Bastenes in the Damsholte Parish.

Therefore it seems most likely to me that this second Peder Hansen is the one whose birth record i found from the Damsholte Parish.  Does that seem logical?  Is there something I am overlooking?  Any thoughts for other evidence that could help confirm this?

Thanks,

Ric

PS If there would be benefit to having the actual links to all of this data, I can spend some more time to include them.

[Ole Westermann]

Hi Ric

I have been looking at your data, which are somewhat confusing to me.
And I have found some info, but first I would like to ask you, whether both couples are among
your ancestors?

Ole

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Rich

There is something wrong with your description- or I don´t understand the meaning.


You write that the first Peder Hansen -married 1804, is a brother of Hans Mogensen.  And that Hans Mogensen had a child named Peder Hansen, born 1773 - died before 1778 . Have you found his dead, because  it would be a custumn, that a child could get his uncles name even if the uncle wasn't dead- thats for me a wrong deduction.

Could the second P.H. not be the child of Hans Mogensen?


Greetings
Grethe

[Ole Westermann]

It's a bit confusing to read your data.
I would prefer to call the 2 Peder Hansen PH-1 and PH-2.

PH-1 (~ 1804 to MKN-1) is son of Hans Mogensen & Karen Hansdatter in Tostenæs.
He was bp. 22.dec.1782
  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149307#149307,24690519
At census 1801 he is farm hand (age 19) in Vollerup at Niels Hemmingsen
At the marriage 1804 PH-1 and MKN-1 are both serving Jochum Olsen in Vollerup, who is best man together
with PH-1's father Hans Mogensen.
--------------------
  Here he is called Mogensen:
Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Wollerup, Et Huus, 17, FT-1834, B9345
Peder Mogensen                51   Gift      Husmand med Jord   
Mette Nielsdatter                62   Gift      hans Kone    
Karen Kirst Pedersdatter*   30   Ugift      Deres Datter
  *baptism 25.nov.1804: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149305#149305,24690012
-------------------------------------
Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Wollerup, et Huus, 15, FT-1840, B9379
Niels Pedersen   27   Ugift      Væver og Fæstehusmand   
Peder Hansen   59   Enkemand            dennes Fader og Aftægtsmd   
Karen Pedersdatter   36   Ugift      hans Datter
-------------------
MKN-1 died 18.dec.1839 age 70 in Vollerup
  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=203516#203516,38598783
PH-1 died 6.jun.1840 age 60 in Vollerup   
  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=203516#203516,38598756

**************************
PH-2's baptism COULD be here in 1774 bottom right:
  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148889#148889,24608914
  4de Søndag efter Paasche Hafde Hm. Hans Pedersen og Hu-
  strue Malene Jensdaatter i Hielm en Søn til Daaben,
  kaldet: PEDER, baaren af Peter Jørgensens tienestepige
  Sisse Hansdaatter, hos hende gik Christen Jensens p. An-
  ne, begge ibid. Faddere: Jens Didrichsens S. Didrich og
  Peter Jørgensens K(arl) Christen begge i Hielm.
His confimation was in 1789 in Damsholte

At https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149305#149305,24690203 nr 7 in 1806
says that Ungkarl Peder Hansen (PH-2) was from Røddinge* (in Damsholte p.), and that Mette Kirstine
Nielsdatter**, daughter of Niels Christiansen from Dame, had previously been' besovet' (made
pregnant) twice.

  *in the other book it says Lind, but no Peder Hansen from those places were baptized during the actual period
**her baptism is here in 1778 top right:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149307#149307,24690472
Eod. Die døbt Niels Christiansens og Mette
Peders Daaters Pigebarn af Dame, kaldet
METTE KIRSTINE, baaren af Hans Hem-
mingsens Hustrue Margaretha ibidem. Test.
Morten Hansen ...etc...
-------------
Præstø, Mønbo, Damsholte, Hielm, , 26, FT-1801, b9308
Hans Ørbech   36   Gift   Husbonde   Gaardmand   
Magrethe Hansdatter   29   Gift   Kone       
Jørgen Hansen   9   -   deres Børn      
Karen Hansdatter   7   -   deres Børn      
Jens Hansen   5   -   deres Børn      
Magrethe Hansdatter   3   deres Børn      
Niels Hansen   1   -   deres Børn       
Peder Hansen   26   Ugift   deres Tienestefolk      PH-2   
Else Larsdatter   25   Ugift   deres Tienestefolk   
-------------------------
Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Store Dame, Et Huus, 90-F2, FT-1834, B9345
Peder Hansen   62   Gift      Fattiglem   
Mette Nielsdatter   57   Gift      hans Kone
Maren Pedersdatter10   Ugift      Deres Datter
----------------------
Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Dame Bye, et Huus, 78-F2, FT-1840, B9379
Peder Hansen   70   Gift      Inderste og Fattiglem   
Mette Nielsdatter   61   Gift      hans Kone
------------------------
Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Dame Bye, Huus, 290-F2, FT-1845, B9407
Navn:    Alder:    Civilstand:    Stilling i husstanden:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Peder Hansen   73   Gift      Fattiglem      Phanefjord Sogn
Mette Nielsdatter   67   Gift      hans Kone     Phanefjord Sogn
-------------------------
Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Dame Bye, Ditto [Huset] No 14, 72-F2, FT-1850, B9440
Peder Hansen   78   Gift      Inds: og Almisselem   Do [Fanefjord]
Mette K: Pedersen   72   Gift      hans Kone [Peder Hansen]   Do [Fanefjord]
------------------------
BUT in the 1855 census: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=119063#119063,17413484
Peder Hansen age 85 in a house nr 42, widower, says that he was born in Kallehauge (Kalvehave) Sogn
in Præstø amt. He lives with his daughter Maren Kirstine 31 and her illeg. daughter at 1.

So maybe my proposals above are wrong. Where was he born? The statements:
At marriage      : Damsholte p.
Census 1845-50: Fanefjord
    -     1855     : Kalvehave

At the census 1787 in Damsholte are 2 boys at 13, one is the above mentioned, and a second is serving
as a young farm hand (tjeneste dreng) in the vicarage; he may probably have come from Kalvehave on
the northern side of the stream.

Ole

[Britta Hansen]

Ric,

You are obviously trying to find the parents of a child / some children - right?
I looked at the Probate Records of the first couple PH_1:

Registreringsforretning efter fæstehusmand Peder Hansen af Wollerup – pagina 318
Anno 1840 den 19. Juni
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=132905#132905,33337509
There were two children:
Søn Niels Christopher Pedersen 27
Datter Karen Kirstine Pedersdatter (ugift) not married
Skiftesamling Anno 1840 22 december – pagina 378
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=132905#132905,33337540

Ole, please have a look at the records to check that I'm right about the names

[Britta Hansen]

This is PH_2 in the Military Levying Rolls in Damsholte Parish:

1791_3_393 Peder Aged 17 – father Hans Pedersen Hjelm
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17265,737514

1792_3_393/356
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17274,738961

1796_3_356/294
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17289,741395

1801_3_294/223
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17304,745180

1804_80_223/182 Aged 29 Damsholte Parish - Hjelm
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17312,747632

1806_80_182/137 staying at Damsholte Præstegaard
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17322,750762

1810_80_137 staying at Damsholte Præstegaard
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16481031#17333,753635
Deleted from the Military Rolls 1811 living in Damsholte

[Ole Westermann]

Britta, your probate about PH-1 seems correct to me.
And the Levying rolls about the POSSIBLE PH-2 from Hjelm indicates, that he is NOT the PH-2, who married MKN-2.

mvh Ole

[Ric Rasmussen]

Ole,

Thank you so very much for clarifying things.  Sorry my original post was so confusing.

Grethe,

PH-1 is the son of Hans Mogensen.  PH-1 was born in 1782.  Hans Mogensen had another son named Peder born 1773 (PH-3)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-J34V?i=150&wc=M5KH-VZH%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357956501%2C357974001%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

Number 2

My comment was that since the brothers PH-1 and PH-3 had the same name that PH-3 had probably died before PH-1 was born.

Britta,

Thank you for that additional info.  I don't have experience looking at probate records or military levying records.  Ole, you are saying that Peder Hansen in the levying rolls can't be PH-2 because PH-2 was married in 1806, is that right?

Ole, I asked you this in an email and I will put it here for others to comment.

I wonder about PH-2.  Most of the censuses would have his birth year as 1772.  The 1855 census would put his birth year at 1770.  His age at death (90) would put his birth year as 1769.  The possible PH-2 you list was born in 1774.

Death record:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-K96M?i=145&wc=M5KH-PYQ%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357956501%2C358039701%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

First entry #12

I searched Damsholte from 1768 to 1773 and found this Peder Hansen so probably the only Peder Hansen born in that parish during that time period.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-NF3?i=263&wc=M5KH-DPB%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357868501%2C357900201%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

Right hand page near top


https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-L71C?i=20&wc=M5KC-DPR%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357868501%2C357869501%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

Right hand page near bottom

He was from Bastenes which if I read the old maps correctly is pretty close to Røddinge.  That fits better than Lind which is in the other marriage record.

Do you think this is PH-2?  Ole, you mentioned that you did not think so.  Was something specific that made you think it was the possible PH-2 for 1774 on not this one?

I also asked if this could be the death record of MKN-2?  It is the only record for a MKN from 1850-1864.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-K9FG?i=214&wc=M5KH-PYQ%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357956501%2C358039701%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

#16 last one on page

The age is correct.  The location is correct.  But the spouse is listed as Peder Danielsen.

Ole, you indicated you didn't think so because MKN-2 is with PH-2 in 1850.  I am wondering if Peder Danielsen is actually PH-2.  There is only one Peder Danielsen listed in the censuses of 1850, 1855 and 1860.

Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Dame Skoledistrikt, Dame, Et Hus, 35 - F2, FT-1860, D5974

Maren Stine Pedersdatter   36   Ugift   Indsidder. Fattiglem      Fanefjord Sogn, Præstø Amt
Bodil Kirstine Vilhelmsen   6   Ugift   Hendes uægte Barn      Fanefjord Sogn, Præstø Amt
Peder Danielsen                   3   Ugift   Hendes uægte Barn      Fanefjord Sogn, Præstø Amt

From the 1855 census we see that this is PH-2's daughter and her two illegitimate children. Here is the birth record for that son:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-5Q5R?i=20&wc=M5KC-YWG%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357956501%2C358033701%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

Number 5

If I read this correctly, his father was reported to be Hans Peder Pedersen.  So where did Danielsen come from?  Did they just make it up?  I wonder if for some reason this Peder Danielsen's grandfather (PH-2) also used that name and that is why he was named that.  Any thoughts on this?


Thank you,

Ric

[Britta Hansen]

Ric,
Your Peder Hansen can't be the guy from Bastenæs, Damsholte sogn. He died in Jan 1769
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148889#148889,24608878
He wasn't mentioned in the Probate Records of his mother Bodil Hemmingsdatter:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=130463#130463,33896343

Found this text on Aurelia Clemons' probate records:
Bodil Hemmingsdtr i Bastenes          9 Feb/27 Sep 1781       pg 113
HUSB:    Hans Stephensen gmd
CH:      Niels Hansen     3
        Karen Hansdtr    11
        Ane Kirstine Hansdtr 10
        Margrethe Hansdtr        8
        Sidse Hansdtr    7
        Mette Hansdtr    5
        Kirsten Hansdtr  2  ( Kirstine Hansdtr )
BRO:     Hemming Hemmingsen gmd i Nobolle (eldest bro)

He can't be the Peder mentioned by Ole as PH-2 Father Hans Pedersen Hjelm: he probably did not leave Damsholte Parish according to the Military Levying Rolls.

I'm still trying to figure out the name of the child being your ancestor and whose father was Peder Hansen in Fanefjord
Please let us know

[Ric Rasmussen]

Thanks, Britta.  That is helpful.  We have eliminated a couple other possibilities.  Not sure where to turn now to figure out where PH-2 was born.  I will probably search Kalvehave Sogn.

If I understand your last question correctly, you are wondering how I am related to Peder Hansen.

My 4th great grandmother was Anne Margrethe Hansdatter.  She was the also the daughter of Hans Mogensen and sister of Peder Hansen, PH-1.

Thanks,

Ric

[Ole Westermann]

Ric,

I have to ask you:
Is PH-2 also among your ancestors?  If NO, why search further about him?

Ole

[Ric Rasmussen]

Ole,

The main reason I undertook all of this is that in Family Search several people have merged the Peder Hansens and MK Nielsdatters.  I am trying to have as detailed information as possible so I can undo the merged individuals as accurately as possible.  There is another Peder Hansen that has also been merged in.  He was born 17 Mar 1784 in Bredemad to Hans Hansen Noer and Mette Frideriksdatter.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-JSBY?i=82&wc=M5KH-VZ7%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C357956501%2C357986301%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

Top left

He does not show up in the 1787 census so I feel I have eliminated this PH.

Præstø, Mønbo, Fanefjord, Bredemad, 6, 123, FT-1787, B2415
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Position in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Hans Nør   60   Enkemand           Mand                                   Huusmand Skræder   
Maren   5                      Datter af dette Ægteskab

If I ultimately can't find any more information on PH-2 I will do my best in separating them.

I searched the Kalvehave Sogn from 1768 to 1774.  I found these PH's.  I'm sure I messed up some of the names.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-RHN1?mode=g&i=52&wc=M5KZ-4WL%3A357517501%2C359241901%2C359478701%2C359488401%3Fcc%3D2078555&cc=2078555

1768 Peder Hansen
Hans Stor? In Weemose?
Anne Chatanna? HansDaater
P 53

1769 Peder Hansen
Hans Andersen fra Steensbye
No mother listed
P 60

1770 Peder Hansen
Hans Giast? In Kallehauge
No mother
P 61

1771 Peder Hansen
Hans Andersen in Giamosa?
No mother
P63

1772 Peder Hansen
Hans Olsen in Steensbye
No mother
P 67

1773 Peder Hansen
Hans Boiher? In Steensbye
No mother
P 68

The one that interests me the most is the PH born in 1770 in Kallehauge since this is what shows up in the 1855 census of PH-2 as Ole found.

If I look at the 1787 census I find these individuals.

Præstø, Baarse, Kalvehave, Sÿndre Wiemose Bÿe, gårdmænd, 14, FT-1787, B1114
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Position in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Hans Andersen Aab:   49   Gift   husbonde   bonde og gårdbeboer   
Ane Catharine Hans Datter   45   Gift   madmoder      
Hans Hansen   21   Ugift   deres børn      
Peder Hansen   17   Ugift   deres børn      
Rasmus Hansen   11   Ugift   deres børn      
Jens Hansen   9   Ugift   deres børn      
Maren Hans Datter   14   Ugift   deres børn      
Ane Kirstine Hans Datter   6   Ugift   deres børn      
Karen Hans Datter   4   Ugift   deres børn      
Ellen Hans Datter   1   Ugift   deres børn      
Maren Ohls Datter   22   Ugift   tjenestepige      


Præstø, Baarse, Kalvehave, Steens Bÿe, gårdmænd, 31, FT-1787, B1114
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Position in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Hans Jacobsen   48   Gift   husbonde   bonde og gårdbeboer   
Kirsten Mortens Datter   25   Gift   madmoder      
Jacob Hansen   4   Ugift   mandens søn i første ægteskab      
Peder Hansen   18   Ugift   tjenestekarl


Præstø, Baarse, Kalvehave, Rÿsberggaarden, gårdmænd, 1, FT-1787, B1114
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Position in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Niels Hansen   67   Gift   husbonde   bonde og gårdbeboer   
Maren Hendricks Datter   80   Gift   madmoder      
Lars Madsen   22   Ugift   tjenestekarl      
Jens Larsen   20   Ugift   tjenestekarl      
Peder Hansen   16   Ugift   tjenestedreng      
Kirsten Niels Datter   24   Ugift   tjenestepige      
Karen Christens Datter   17   Ugift   tjenestepige      


Præstø, Baarse, Kalvehave, Wrangsgaarde, gårdmænd, 1, FT-1787, B1114
Name:    Age:    Marital status:    Position in household:    Occupation:    Birth place:
Christen Nielsen Fugl   47   Gift   husbonde   bonde og gårdbeboer   
Maren Rasmus Datter   55   Gift   madmoder      
Niels Christensen   16   Ugift   deres ægte fødte børn i sidste ægteskab      
Hans Christensen   15   Ugift   deres ægte fødte børn i sidste ægteskab      
Hans Nielsen   26   Ugift   tjenestekarl      
Peder Hansen   16   Ugift   tjenestedreng      
Ellen Fridericks Datter   50   Ugift   tjenestepige      
Hÿlleborg Jens Datter   17   Ugift   tjenestepige


Is there anything else that would definitely show that one of these may be PH-2?

Thank you all for your help on this.

Ric