Birgitte Maria Seested - Vinderød

Startet af Matthew Lowe, 22 Jun 2017 - 00:05

Forrige emne - Næste emne

Matthew Lowe

Hey,

I'm looking for some help or advice to track down the birth place of my ancestor Birgitte Maria Seested, which I've been unable to locate.

What I know so far is:


She died in Vinderød, Frederiksborg on Sept. 20 1806, aged 48. In Vinderød church book she is listed as Maria Louise Sested
She appears in the 1787 census for Vinderød as Maria Rahn, aged 30, born 1757
She appears in the 1801 census for Vinderød as Birgitte Maria Seested, aged 44, born 1757
She was married to a Johan Gotfried Rahn
They had five children, Johan Frederich, Anna Dorothea, Sophie, Hendrick and Anne Marie
Anne Marie's birth record on Ancestry lists here mother as Britte Marie Elise Louise Rahn

Right now I do not know her place of birth so have no way to trace the line back further. Some other family trees online that list her say she was born in Kobenhavn, but they have no references to back up that claim.

I was wondering if any database might exist where I could potentially search for her birth in the church books? Without such a system I fear it'll be impossible to find her place of birth to search church books. I have checked Vinderød's church book to see if she was born there but cannot find an entry for her or for her marriage to Johan Rahn. The births of their older children do not appear in Vinderød either, suggesting they moved there around 1800 or so.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Britta Hansen

#1
Matthew,

The family is listed in the Frederiksværk Parish church book - right hand side last entry:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149871#149871,24817088
Her name is listed as Birgitte Marie Lovise Sehested (Schwartz?) f Kbhvn = født i København (born in Copenhagen)

She died in 1805
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149871#149871,24817040
I have looked for some Probate Records without any luck.
Venlig hilsen
Britta Hansen

britta.hansen12@gmail.com

Jan Hedegaard Skov

Hi Matthew,

You are lucky. I would try to find the confirmation of one of their children (and hoped fore more information ex. birthplace).
But before I found the churchbook for Vinderød, I noticed that there were a Churchbook for Frederiksværk (1805-1821 FKVDJTA (EM)), and I hed noticed that the family were living in Frederiksværk in the cencus from 1787 and 1801.
In the end of this churchbook there is a record of the people in Vinderød like the cencus but also with birth(place), married, dead.

Look here (last family on the right side);
http://ao.salldata.dk/vis1.php?side=131&bsid=149871&kb=Frederiksborg+amt%2C+Str%C3%B8%2C+Frederiksv%C3%A6rk%2C+1805-1821+FKVDJTA+%28EM%29

What I can read is;

Rahn Johan Gotfried, Snedker, f. Tydsk 1749, __ b 1807
Hst a. Birgitte Marie Louise Sehested (Schvartz?) f. Khvn + 1805=50
b. E. Vilhelmine A__tman f. K___, (___ H)
dtt. Ane Dorothea _ ___ 1798 __ 1801 (_ _ _ K__borg) +1811
S. Johan Frederik Lorents _ 1800 _ 1806 ___ ( _ _ _ M___)
dtt. Sophie Fredemine __ 1785 _ 1804
S. Johannes (Andreas?) Ferdinand __ 1787 + 1796 __=9
S. Henrik Martin, __ 1792, +1802=10
dtt. Ane Marie f. 1800, + 1802 =2

Hope someone can fill the blanks.

As I can see, then he remarried after Birgitte death in 1805 to a widow Vilhelmine.
And it also says that Birgitte was born in Khvn (Copenhagen) around 1755.
And they had 6 children. You do not have Johannes.
As I can see the first year for Ane Dorothea and Johan Frederik are they confirmation, and for the rest it is their birth
I would claim that it is church act in Vinderød/Frederiksværk, which means that Ane Dorothea and Johan Frederik was not born in Vinderød, but had their confirmation here and so on... And when the first year is 1785, I would say that they have come to Vinderød/Frederiksværk between 1783-1785.

I can see that Britta Hansen were quicker than me :)
Med Venlig Hilsen

Jan Hedegaard Skov
Aarhus
Slægt fra Himmerland og Thy

Matthew Lowe

Thank you both very much, I had not seen this family record before. What sort of record is it? So far in pursuing my German/Danish ancestors I've only really looked at Births, Marriages and Deaths in the church books. It's especially nice to find they had another son! :)

Are either of you aware of any resource or method I might use to find Birgitte Sehested's birth in Copenhagen without going through church book by church book? I feel like that might be quite a long search! I have found other people named Sehested in Vester Kvarter in the 1787 Copenhagen census, my hope is maybe she is related and from the Vester Kvarter parishes, but I am yet to find her. That said, I was checking in 1757 based on the Vinderod census records birth year for her, it appears now I might need to check 1755 instead.

Ole Westermann

I read and add:

Rahn Johan Gotfried, Snedker (carpenter), f. Tydsk (Germany) 1749, cop b (in) 1807
Hst a. Birgitte Marie Louise Sehested (Schvartz?) f. Khvn +1805 = 50 ¤
       (¤ at the burial changed to 48 y.o., died suddenly from stroke)
     b. E. Vilhelmine Stratman f. Hornhaver, (se under H*)
Dtt. Ane Dorothea** f. Still(inge?), cf. 1798 cop 1801 (m J F Haureberg) +1811
S.   Johan Frederik Lorents***    cf. 1800, cp 1806, Snedk.sv, cp (m. J.F.Müller)
Dtt. Sophie Frederike, f. Frv. 1785, cf. 1804
S.   Johannes (Andreas?) Ferdinand, f. Frv 1787, + 1796(?) = 9.
S.   Henrik Martin, f. Frv 1792, +1802 = 10
Dtt. Ane Marie f. 1800, + 1802 = 2
---------------------
* https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149871#149871,24817076 nr 30
  she was a widow after .... Stratman
** https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=149871#149871,24817077 no 4 from bottom
   Anne Dorthea Rahn - Snedker Rahn - (bp) 1 Novbr 1781 - etc...
   Her betrothal 26.June 1801 at https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=158743#158743,26669761
   Her husband was 'støbemester' (master founder)
*** https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=153004#153004,25483158 no 5 from bottom
   Johan Frider. Lorents hiemme hos (home with) Snedker Rahn - (bp) 23 Martii 1783 - etc .....
   His betrothal 1806 at https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=158743#158743,26669771

Ole

Ole Westermann

I think that I found their betrothal and marriage in Citadel church in København:

At https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/other-collection/29 are indexes for chuch books etc

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17256652#211778,40013034 no 2026
Rahn, Gottfried, Musketer & Marie Lowise - 26.9.1779

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=148852#148852,24602842 (in German)
D. 24te Maii verlobete ich den Mousquetier Gottfried Rahn vom 3ten
           Bataillon des Nordischen Leib Regimentes und Dhl Capitain von
           Huulbechs Compagnie mit der Jungfr. Marie Lowise nach vorge-
           zeigtem Conceus? und abgelegtem Eide. Für ihr cavirte, der
           Comm. Serg. Georg Muus und für sie der Serg M. Andresen.
           Sie wurden nach 3 mahl proclamirt und copulirt d 26te Septbr 1779.
------------------------------- in English:
D. 24th of May I betrothed the musketeer Gottfried Rahn from 3rd
           Bataillon og the Nordic Life Regiment and Captain von
           Huulbech's Compagnywith miss Marie Lowise after shown
           certificate and taken oath. For him guaranteed 
           Comm. Serg. Georg Muus and for her Serg. M. Andresen.
           They were after 3 times proclamation married the 26th of Septbr 1779.

Her surname is not mentioned.

Ole

Inger Toudal

#6

A daughter b. 1781 in Copenhagen:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYK3-JYR
Name    Anne Dorothee Gottfriedsdatter
Gender    Female
Christening Date    01 Nov 1781
Christening Place    Garnison, København, København, Denmark
Father's Name    Gottfried Rahn Or Rahe
Mother's Name    Marie Lovise Andersdatter

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17114961#150061,24853161 - right page, # 1 in November.

Best regards,
Inger Toudal
Venlig hilsen
Inger Toudal

Ole Westermann

And the baptism of Johan Friedrich Lorenz Rahn in Garnison church is at
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17114961#150061,24853176  right nr 2 from bottom
d.23 V(ater) Joh. Rahn, N.L.R. Cap. Sulkow
       M(utter) Marie Lovise Andersdtr
       K(ind)  Johan Friedrich Lorenz
       ------------
Gev(attern) Lorenz Thielmann, Stephan Thygesen
Koch, Carl Hoppe, Peder ..... Lud... Hiortlund
Elis. Cathr. Sørensen, Birgitte Brennøe?

Matthew Lowe

Thank you all so much for the help, this is amazing! :)

Out of interest do any of you know more about how and why people would switch from patronymic names to our current surname type system? As Marie was Andersdatter originally but then Sehested before she married would she likely have chosen that name or might it be one from her family? I'm not very familiar with how these naming systems changed over time in Denmark.

Ole Westermann

#9
Patronym were used on the countryside, but in the cities is was more common to use fixed surnames.
So 2/3 of the population used patronyms. But in 1828 came a new decree, where it was recommended
that people should use fixed surnames, but many people were unwilling to do this, so it took decades
to change the old system with patronyms.
But in 1856 the government decided, that from now all surnames should be fixed.
Neverthelees the use of patronymes continued in some areas on the contryside for decades. Civil disobedience !

But there is probably no doubt, that the name of Birgitte Marie Lovise's father was Anders Sehested.
I have been surching for him in København, but without succes until now.

Ole

Matthew Lowe

Thank you Ole, I assumed Sehested must have been a family name and not just made up at that point. I guess I'll just keep picking through each parishes' books until I find them :)

Ole Westermann

Matthew

Maybe Birgitte Marie Lovise Andersdatter Sehested could have been born as a illegitimate daughter of this officer (lieutenant colonel) and
nobleman, Anders Sehested:
https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I10588&tree=2
I notice that he seems to have moved from Skåne in Southern Sweden to Brudager in Southern Fyn i Denmark in the mid 1750ies.
Could have been in København and had an affair??

In that case it is not sure, that Anders Sehesteds name has been mentioned in the church records.

Ole

Matthew Lowe

Citat fra: Ole Westermann [1234] Dato 27 Jun 2017 - 10:13
Matthew

Maybe Birgitte Marie Lovise Andersdatter Sehested could have been born as a illegitimate daughter of this officer (lieutenant colonel) and
nobleman, Anders Sehested:
https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I10588&tree=2
I notice that he seems to have moved from Skåne in Southern Sweden to Brudager in Southern Fyn i Denmark in the mid 1750ies.
Could have been in København and had an affair??

In that case it is not sure, that Anders Sehesteds name has been mentioned in the church records.

Ole

An interesting idea. I did do a search for an Anders Sehested on Ancestry.com and this guy did show up, but I couldn't make any link to Marie Lovise. In searching all the (Staden) Kobehavn church books I could find for the year 1757 I've not yet come across any Sehesteds yet and I think I've checked most of the big parishes now (Garnisons, Vor Frue, Trinitas, Helligands, St Nikolaj etc).

If a child's birth is illegitimate is this normally noted in the church books and if so in what way? Would there still likely be a reference to the father even if his surname isn't used for the child? If she is listed as 'Andersdatter' for her children's birth/christening records it seems clear she knew who her father was.

Ole Westermann

The illegitimate children are often among the legitimate children in the records, but ex. Garnison parish has this
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=150069#150069,24855240
which I searched for Birgitte Marie Lovise 1755-59 without finding her.

Sometimes the illegitimate children are listed in the end of the book. You can get an idea about this, if no illegitimate
children are found in the first part of the book. There were a good deal of them!!
Often the putative father is named ('Som Barnefader udlagt'), but not always.

I would suggest, that all 3 names of Birgitte Marie Lovise are mentioned at the baptism, so there are not many of them!

Matthew Lowe

So, I have searched the parish books for the following parishes now, but have still not found Birgitte Marie Lovise's birth:

Vor Frue, Sankt Nikolaj, Helligand, Sankt Petri, Holmen, Vor Frelser, Frederiks Tyske, Trinitatis, Garnison.

As far as I know that is all the parishes/churches in Copenhagen before 1816. Does anybody know if I've missed any and if so what they are called?

The other question I have is, is there wider area than the city that might have been referred to as Copenhagen, like the wider county? In my other research these seem to be referred to under their own names, rather than Copenhagen, but if that isn't the case it might be the last place I can look.

Thanks for all the help.

Henrik Brandt

Hi,

You should also try: Citadels/Kastels, Det Kongelige Frederiks Hospital, Frederiksberg (very close to Copenhagen), Fødselsstiftelsen (starts 1759), Hof- og Slotskirken, Kvindefængslet på Christianshavn, Københavns Ladegård, Sankt Hans Hospital, Vartov.

I will also mention that some of the big parishes, like Holmens and Garnisons, has more than one book covering births in the same year. For example: Births in Danish Garnison Parish and German Garnison Parish are found in seperate books. It's important to check 2 or 3 books in such cases.


Matthew Lowe

Thanks Henrik, I'll check those

Matthew Lowe

Hey,

So after a lot of searching through the different church books over the last few months I've never actually been able to find Birgitte Sehested's birth in Copenhagen. Maybe I've missed it, at this point it feels like I've been through so many records I've probably become blind to the name ;D

This has left me with two questions that I wondered if somebody here might be able to answer for me:

1) Were there ever scenarios where a child's birth/christening was not recorded in the church books? If she was illegitimate could that have meant she was not recorded at all? And were there any sort of legal requirements enforcing children to be registered?

2) Some family history sites suggest there was a København county that covers a larger area, much further outside the city. When records say Birgitte was born in København could it mean the county rather than the city? Or if she was born outside the city itself would that always likely mean she would list a more specific town or village instead?

Hopefully somebody can help clear that up for me, and thanks again to all of you who have already helped me with this branch of my family.