Confusion over probate record

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Hello,

I have a probate record for Johanne Jorgensdatter as follows:

254 Johanne Jørgensdatter i Klakring. 17.8.1841, fol.68, 71B.
E: Enke efter Jens Hansen (Vindelboes). B: Hans Jensen, der har overtaget fæstet, Niels Jensen i Haldrup på Stensballegård gods, Rasmus Jensen på stedet, Maren Jensdatter g.m. Niels Falster Rasmussen i Klakring, Cathrine Sofie Vilhelmine Jensdatter g.m. Christen Jørgensen i Klakring, Kirsten 38. FM: Peder Mortensen sst. Af første ægteskab B: Birthe Frederiksdatter, død, var g.m. Peder Jensen Clemensen på Hostrup Mark. 7B: Birthe 23, Jens 18, Johanne 16, Rasmus 15, Frederik 13, Niels 11, Peder 6. FM: Peder Mortensen i Klakring.

My confusion lies with the bold piece.  Does that mean Johanne Jorgensdatter was married firstly to someone named Frederik and had a daughter, Birthe, in that marriage?

I have found Birthe in the 1834 Census, married to Peder Jensen and with the children listed.  If Birthe is as old as the census states (age 44), and her mother, Johanne Jorgensdatter, age 68 at death in 1841 (birth 1773), I think she is too young to have a child in 1790.  Or I am reading the record wrong?  I could not find a marriage for Johanne and Frederik in Klakring and I also looked in Stouby but might have missed something.

Johanne Jorgensdatter death: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=165494#165494,27798123

[Lis B. Jensen]

Hi Rebecca.

Where did You find this Probate?

[Henrik Brandt]

Hi

The original probate is here: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17177343#195009,32649927

(starts to the right and continues on the next page)

The son Hans Jensen informs that the other heirs are his siblings. One of them: his halfsister on his mother's side, Birthe Frederiksdatter. It does not say that Birthe was "from the first marriage". So Johanne Jørgensdatter might/might not be married to "Frederik". Maybe Birthe was illegitimate.

[Henrik Brandt]

Could this be Birthe Frederiksdatter, living with her grandmother?

Vejle, Bjerre, Barrit, Barrit Sogn, Breeth Bye, 16, FT-1801, B9166

Navn:    Alder:    Status:    Stilling i familien:    Erhverv:    Fødested:
Birte Jensdatter     55     Enke     Huusmoder     Fæster og Gaardbruger       
Morten Jørgensen     27     Ugift     Hendes Børn     National Rytter       
Fridrik Jørgensen     16     Ugift     Hendes Børn            
Karen Jørgensdatter     14     Ugift     Hendes Børn            
Birte Fridriksdatter     10     Ugift     Hendes Datter Datter            
Else Rasmusdatter     24     Ugift     Tienestefolk            
Peder Jørgensen     20     Ugift     Tienestefolk            
Jens Hansen     90     Enke     Konens Fader     Aftægts Mand  

[Inger Toudal]

Yes, you have interpreted the probate extract correct. I see Henrik Brandt has found the scanned probate record.

The probate extract is from https://www.brejl.dk/bjerre.html#pals

Johanne Jørgensdatter's daughter Birthe in 1840 census:

Vejle, Bjerre, Stouby, Hostrup By, Et Huus, 23, FT-1840, C8409
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in household:     Occupation:     
Peder Jensen     50     Gift            Huusmand og lever af sin Jordlod        
Birthe Rasmusdatter*     49     Gift            hans Kone        * ??
Rasmus Pedersen     15     Ugift            deres Børn        
Frederik Pedersen     13     Ugift            deres Børn        
Niels Thomasen Pedersen     11     Ugift            deres Børn        
Peder Pedersen     5     Ugift            deres Børn  

Death record: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17126688#169691,28492466 - top

Could be Johanne Jørgensdatter in the 1787 census:

Vejle, Bjerre, Barrit, Breet Bye, , 2 Familie, FT 1787, A1861
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in household:     Occupation:
Jørgen Mortensen     54     gift      mand      Gaardbeboer       
Birthe Jensdatter     41     gift      hustru            
Peder Pedersen     24     -      mandens st. søn             
Peder Pedersen     21     -      mandens st. søn             
Johanne Jørgensdatter     11     -      en datter 2. ægteskab             
Hans Helmuth     9     -      en søn 2. ægteskab             
Frid. Kristen     7     -      en søn 2. ægteskab             
Anna Jørgensdatter     1     -      tvilling 2. ægteskab             
Karen Jørgensdatter     1     -      tvilling 2. ægteskab             
Morten Jørgensen     11     -      en søn 2. ægteskab  

Age in census and church records is not necessarily exact.

Best regards,
Inger Toudal

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Could this be Birthe Frederiksdatter, living with her grandmother?

Vejle, Bjerre, Barrit, Barrit Sogn, Breeth Bye, 16, FT-1801, B9166

Hi Henrik,

Thank you for the link to the probate record.  I was wondering how to find the originals.

I think that 1801 Census is a definite possibility that this is my Birthe Frederiksdatter but I do not find her in the parish transcripts in Barrit 1784-1792 or Stouby 1790-1797. 

[Inger Toudal]

Maybe you have already found these probate extracts at https://www.brejl.dk/bjerrezacho.pdf

76. Peder Rasmussen i Breth  10-7-1765, s. 7 a. E: Birthe Jensdatter. LV: FAR:
Jens Hansen Smed, Breth. B: Mette 1, Peder, nyfødt iflg. endeligt skifte (ingen dato).
1. ægt. m. Mette Jørgensdatter, se lbnr. 63. 1 B: Peder 9. FM: FARBROR: Niels
Rasmussen, Breth, desuden nævnes salig Peder Sørensens søn, Søren. Se lbnr. 34,
302, 349 & 4424.

364. Jørgen Mortensen Fynboe i Breth  5-7-1799, s. 661. E: Birthe Jensdatter. LV:
Peder Nielsen, Breth. B: Jens, Breth, Morten 25, Hans 23, Frederik 20, Johanne g. m.
Jens [Hansen] Wendelbo, Klakring, Karen 12. FM: FARBROR: Laurs Mortensen,
Klakring, BROR: Jens Jørgensen, Breth.

Vejle, Bjerre, Klakring, Klakring Sogn, Klakring, 2, FT-1801, B9165
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in household:     Occupation:
Jens Hansen     44     Gift      Huusbonde      Bonde og Gaardbeboer Sognefoged. Brandfoged og medhielper        
Johanne Jørgensdatter     30     Gift      Hans Kone             
Maren Jensdatter     6     Ugift      Deres Børn              
Hans Jensen     4     Ugift      Deres Børn              
Jørgen Jensen     2     Ugift      Deres Børn              
Jens Hansen     16     Ugift      Tienestefolk              
Leene Andersdatter     28     Ugift      Tienestefolk  

I think Birte Fridriksdatter, daughter's daughter in FT-1801 for Barrit parish, must be Johanne's daughter, since
Jørgen Mortensen left only two daughters: Johanne, and Karen 12 years in 1799. Birte could be the daughter of
Mette Pedersdatter, mentioned in the 1765 probate, but given the 1841 probate, this is less probable.

Mette is probably here:

Vejle, Bjerre, Barrit, Over Barrit, , 16 Familie, FT 1787, A1861
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in household:     Occupation:
Rasmus Jørgensen     40     gift      mand      Gaardbeboer        
Mette Pedersdatter     23     gift      hustru             
Johanne Jørgensdatter     22     -      pige  

302. Peder Pedersen i Breth  17-1-1794, s. 438. A: HALVBROR: Søren Pedersen,
Breth, HALVBROR: Peder Pedersen 27, HALVSØSTER: Mette Pedersdatter g. m.
Rasmus Thorborg, Over Barrit, afdødes stedfar er Jørgen [Mortensen] Fynboe, Breth.
Se lbnr. 34 & 76.

Probate records: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/geo/index/18/ao-soegesider/geo/index/18

https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=M5KX-16K%3A333467301%3Fcc%3D2015318

Best regards,
Inger

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Johanne Jørgensdatter's daughter Birthe in 1840 census:

Vejle, Bjerre, Stouby, Hostrup By, Et Huus, 23, FT-1840, C8409
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in household:     Occupation:     
Peder Jensen     50     Gift            Huusmand og lever af sin Jordlod        
Birthe Rasmusdatter*     49     Gift            hans Kone        * ??
Rasmus Pedersen     15     Ugift            deres Børn        
Frederik Pedersen     13     Ugift            deres Børn        
Niels Thomasen Pedersen     11     Ugift            deres Børn        
Peder Pedersen     5     Ugift            deres Børn  

Thank you Inger.  I was confused what you meant with Johanne Jorgensdatter's daughter Birthe in the 1840 Census?  Those look like Birthe Frederiksdatter's children but I thought deres Børn meant *their* children?

I found the widow Peder (Jensen) Clemensen age 40 remarried to a Maren Rasmussdatter age 24.  Marriage was in Stouby 15 Aug 1840 but that would have been after the 1840 Census was taken in February.  Yet the children in that 1840 Census are similar in the ages and names (except my Niels Pedersen's birth record has no Thomasen in it) of the children born to Peder Jensen Clemensen and Birthe Frederiksdatter.  Of course, he may have remarried in a different parish.

Marriage ?? : https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17126688#169691,28492402

I also found birth records in the parish transcripts for Barrit, Bjerre as follows:
Baptism
1770 • Breet, Barrit, Bjerre, Vejle, Denmark
dom 23 p trin døbt Jørgen Fynboes datter Johanne af Breet, susc. Jens Smeds datter Anne barnets moster ibd. Test. gamle Niels Rasmussen og Ove Michelsen, Hans Smed, Lars Jensens kone Anne Niels Rasmussens datter Anne af Breet.

A daughter Karen is buried in 1773 in Breet?:
Eod. d  kast jord på Jørgen Fynboes datter Karen 5 mdr g. af Breet.

In 1774 also Breet I found Morten:
dom 19 p trin døbt Jørgen Fynboes søn Morten af Breet, susc. Jomfr Begtrup i præstegården, test. Niels Rasmussens datter Anne i Breet, barnets moster Anne af Nebsager skovhus, Christian af Roden gård, Tønne Sørensen af Hornumkiær, Jens T ? fra Scherildgård.

In 1777 also Breet I found Hans Helmut:
Eod. d. døbt Jørgen Fynboes søn Hans Helmuth af Breet, susc. Velbåren frue Lûtticau på Scherildgård, test. jomfr. Begtrup i Barrit præstegård, Ove Michelsens kone Johanne i Breet, Christian Kiær i Roden i Stouby sogn, Tønne Sørensen i Hornumkiær, Jens T ? på Scherildgård.

In 1780 also Breet I found: Frederik Christian:
Fer 2 paschat. døbt Jørgen Fynboes søn Friderik Christian af Breet, susc. Jomfr Nielsen på Bskou, t. forvalter Bie, captain Lûttichau fra Scherildgård, inspecteur Povelsen på Barritskov, jomfr. Fisker i Barretlund

In 1787 also Breet I found the twin girls but this time the father is Jorgen Mortensen:
Samme dag døbt Jørgen Mortensens 2 døtre Anne og Karen af Breet, susc. Laurits Jensens hustru af Vorensviig og Peder Laursens hustru af Nebel, test. Peder Nielsen, Søren Pedersen, Anders Smed, Peder Jensen, S. Reusgård af Breet, H. Lund af Barret, Hans Smeds og Mads Smeds hustruer skoleholderens n. Jensens hustru ibd, Jens Falster af Klakring.

In 1788 also Breet Anne dies:
nytårsdag kast jord på Jørgen Mortensens datter Anne af Breet gl. 15 uger

I believe I can conclude that Jorgen Fynboes and Jorgen Mortensen are the same person.  I also think that the Johanne Jorgensdatter born in 1770 is my Johanne.

Unfortunately, still no sign of a birth record for Birthe Frederiksdatter.  Her 3 youngest children were baptised in Hostrup, Stouby but I am still looking for the children born before 1829 as well as Birthe's birth.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Maybe you have already found these probate extracts at https://www.brejl.dk/bjerrezacho.pdf

76. Peder Rasmussen i Breth  10-7-1765, s. 7 a. E: Birthe Jensdatter. LV: FAR:
Jens Hansen Smed, Breth. B: Mette 1, Peder, nyfødt iflg. endeligt skifte (ingen dato).
1. ægt. m. Mette Jørgensdatter, se lbnr. 63. 1 B: Peder 9. FM: FARBROR: Niels
Rasmussen, Breth, desuden nævnes salig Peder Sørensens søn, Søren. Se lbnr. 34,
302, 349 & 4424.

Best regards,
Inger

Inger you are a treasure!  I was just catching up to all of this and saw your post.  That particular probate extract is in PDF and, each time I search it, Adobe crashes so I have now copied it all into a Word document so I can search easier.

But, I think you found the pieces.  Thank you *SO* much!

Of course, I still want to find Birthe Frederiksdatter (why was she Rasmusdatter in the Census?) to find out where she was born and to whom.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Plus I meant to say that Birthe Frederiksdatter died *after* the 1840 Census.  Why would she be Rasmussdatter?

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Hi Rebecca.

Where did You find this Probate?

Lis, I am sorry I did not provide the link or more information.  My mind was full of too much information to even think about doing that to help you, and others, solve this mystery.

[Henrik Brandt]

Hi Rebecca

Peder Jensen and Birte Friderichsdatter, both 27 years old, married 21 Febr 1817 in Nebsager. I think it is the right couple:

http://ao.salldata.dk/osd_vis.php?side=77&bsid=166917&kb=Vejle+amt%2C+Bjerre%2C+Nebsager%2C+1814-1836+FKVDJTA+%28KM%29

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Hi Rebecca

Peder Jensen and Birte Friderichsdatter, both 27 years old, married 21 Febr 1817 in Nebsager. I think it is the right couple:

http://ao.salldata.dk/osd_vis.php?side=77&bsid=166917&kb=Vejle+amt%2C+Bjerre%2C+Nebsager%2C+1814-1836+FKVDJTA+%28KM%29

Thank you Henrik!  I wonder why they marry in Nebsager?  I do not have a compass to know if this place is close to Barrit?

[Kirsten Didriksen]

Hi Rebecca

It is very near
https://www.google.dk/maps/place/Nebsager+Kirke/@55.7552403,9.7944723,12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x464c89708c44c2d7:0xac78cf1b86b48a26!8m2!3d55.7552403!4d9.8645101

[Inger Toudal]

Johanne Jørgensdatter's daughter Birthe in 1840 census:

Vejle, Bjerre, Stouby, Hostrup By, Et Huus, 23, FT-1840, C8409
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in household:     Occupation:     
Peder Jensen     50     Gift            Huusmand og lever af sin Jordlod        
Birthe Rasmusdatter*     49     Gift            hans Kone        * ??
Rasmus Pedersen     15     Ugift            deres Børn        
Frederik Pedersen     13     Ugift            deres Børn        
Niels Thomasen Pedersen     11     Ugift            deres Børn        
Peder Pedersen     5     Ugift            deres Børn  

Death record: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17126688#169691,28492466 - top

No 8: Birthe Fredrichsdatter, smallholder Peter Klemmensen's wife at Hostrup Mark, 49 3/4 y, died 26 Jun. 1840 and was buried 2 Jul.

- Rasmusdatter in the 1840 census must be an error.

Widowers were allowed to remarry 3 months, or even 6 weeks, after the death of their former spouses.

For location of parishes in Bjerre herred, see https://www.dis-danmark.dk/kort/kortvejl.htm

For other counties: https://www.dis-danmark.dk/kort/kort.htm

Best regards,
Inger

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Hi

The original probate is here: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17177343#195009,32649927

(starts to the right and continues on the next page)

Hi Henrik,

What is the home page for your probate link?  I have been trying to find it so that I can understand how you found the probate record but I keep getting lost.  If I had the starting page I might have more success.

[Henrik Brandt]

Hi Rebecca

This is the Palsgård Gods probates:

https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=palsg%C3%A5rd+gods&d=1&e=2017&f=&g=&h=&ngid=549725&ngnid=549727&heid=11954655&henid=11954655&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Click on "Læs arkivaliet" to get the scanned copy.

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Thank you Henrik.  Is Palsgård Gods the only area that has probate records available online?

[Henrik Brandt]

Palsgård is not the only Danish estate with records online. Familysearch has a lot of them. Maybe it is easier to find them there.

[Inger Toudal]

I gave you links for probate records at the end of this posting:

https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,131005.msg693286.html#msg693286

Background info: https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Denmark_Probate_Records

For Birthe Frederiksdatter's death record, see this posting:

https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,131005.msg693355.html#msg693355

Best regards,
Inger

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Thank Inger.  I realised after I posted that I already had the link for probate documents (via your earlier post).

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Maybe you have already found these probate extracts at https://www.brejl.dk/bjerrezacho.pdf

Best regards,
Inger

Hi Inger.  Are the probate records found in the Bjerrezacho extracts online?  If so, under what name?  I looked at both Family Search and the Danish Archives but do not see this name.

[Inger Toudal]

No, the original probate records for Barritskov Estate 1720 - 1817 on which Sigurd Zacho's extracts are based, are not online.
They can only be seen at the Danish National Archives in Viborg, Jutland:

https://www.sa.dk/daisy/fysiske_enheder_liste?a=&b=&c=barritskov&d=1&e=2017&f=&g=&h=&ngid=549689&ngnid=549691&heid=1766342&henid=1766342&epid=1766342&faid=11&meid=&m2rid=&side=1&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

"G-0365/2: Se endv. film K 6/24. G-0365/3: Se endv. film K 6/25. G-0365/4: Se endv. film K 6/26."

- the same numbers are mentioned in Zacho's extracts.

Best regards,
Inger

[Linda Michelle Thérèsa de Bodt Rosenland]

Thanks Inger.  I will look there for the documents.