Separating Families

Startet af Ric Rasmussen, 09 Dec 2017 - 19:26

Forrige emne - Næste emne

Ric Rasmussen

I think I have found all the information that exists to try to establish who belongs in which family.  Here is the information in chronological order.

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Christen Hansen & Margrethe Hansdatter, betrothed 3 April 1737
#5 bottom left
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94W-YDN3?i=210&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
5) d. 3. April hafde Enkemanden af Pollerup Christen
Hansøn trolovelse med en pige fra Wested ved nafn
Margrethe Hansdatter. Skiftest efter den afdøde var
endda icke holdt men af forvalteren til videre
tilladt at begive sig i nyt Ægteskab og at så intet
videre er som dette ægteskab kand hindre caverer un
dertegnede Dan[n}e mænd
        LAS                      HS Hans Jensen
Lavs Andersen
5) April 3th the widower of Pollerup Christen
Hansen had his bethothal with a girl (maid?) from Wested named
Margrethe Hansdatter. The (I forgot the word-the action where his and his former wifes belongings are summarized and how they are shared) after the deceased had not yet been held but the "caretakers" had
allowed him to enter a new marriage and that nothing
was to hinder that marriage are signed by etc.


Christen Hansen (from Keldbylille) and Giertrud Hemmingsdatter (from Pollerup), betrothed 12 May 1737
#7 right-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94W-YDN3?i=210&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
Dom.3 p. Pascha Hafde en ung Karl af Kielbyelille ved
nafn Christen Hans(en) trolovelse med en Rytter Encke
nafnl. Giertrud Hemmingßdatter af Pollerup, og at intet
er her udi til hinder Caverer undertegnede Dannemænd
            H Sv S                      L H S
       Hans Svendsen            Larß Hemminsen
--------------- translation
Dom.3 p. Pascha a young bachelor from Kielbyelille by
name Christen Hans(en) had betrothal with a horsemans widow
namely Giertrud Hemmingßdatter of Pollerup, and that nothing
can hinder this we signing Dannemænd* guarantee
            H Sv S                      L H S
       Hans Svendsen            Larß Hemmingsen

*a Dannemand is an honourable, reliable man often learned in the Law



Christening of Hans, Feb 1738
#5 left-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-YZSC?i=63&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No 5 Febr (bet 7 & 12 of Feb) Christen Hansen Husmand (smallholder) af Pollerup
kaldet Hans baaren af Jens Hansens hustru i Bissinge,
Faddere, Jens Jensens Søn, Jens af Pollerup, Hans Jensens
Søn, Niels ibid:, Anders Christensens hustru ibid: og Hans
? Daater, ? af K:lille


Christening of Hans, 30 September 1738
#18 right-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-YZSC?i=63&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
18 d.30 Septembris Blev Christen Hansøns Søn af Pollerup
døbt og kaldet Hans, baaren af Lars Andersøns Hustrue
Anna i Kieldbye. Faddere: Jens Jens(en) i Pollerup, Hans Jens(en) ibid
Præstens Pige Metthe Hansd. i Kieldbye og Rasmus Christensøns
Hustrue Kathrine i Poller(up).


Burial of Hans, 23 November 1738
#20 left-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-Y4R7?i=165&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No 20 Dom: 25 p Trin: Christen Hansøns Søn, Hans, af Poller:
No 20 Sunday 25th after Trinity (23 November) Christen Hansens son, Hans, of Pollerup


Anna, 18 March 1740
#4 right-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-YZ9K?i=65&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No. 4 d. 18 Martii blev Christian Hansens Daatter af Poller: døbt og
Kaldet Anna, barn af Metthe Hansdatter af Kelbye Faddere: Niels
Rasmussen af Hiertebierg, Hans ? ibid. Hans Ca? i Pollerup
Rasmus Christiansens hustru Cathrine og Ana Pedersdatter ibid.


Burial of  Anna, 27 March 1740
#6 bottom left
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-Y4R7?i=165&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No 6 Dom: Laet: Christen Hansøns liden Daatter, Anna ibid. (Pollerup)
No 5 Sunday Laetere (27th March) Christen Hansens very young daughter, Anna from Pollerup


Jørgen, 13 June 1740
#13 left-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-YCGL?i=66&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No. 13. d. 22. Juny Blev Huusm[and] Christen Hansens Søn af Pollerup døbt og
kaldet Jørgen . Baaren af Hans Svendsens datter Metthe af K.lille
Faddere: Bent Jensen og Jens Andersen af Poller, Hans Skrædders
hustru Anna ibid. og Gyde Andersdatter af K.bye

No. 13. June 22th. was Smallholder Christen Hansens son of Pollerup baptized and
called Jørgen. Carried by Metthe the daughter of Hans Svendsen in K.lille
Witnesses: Bent Jensen and Jens Andersen of Pollerup. Hans [the] Taylors
wife Anna ibid [also of Pollerup] and Gyde Andersdatter of Keldbye.


Burial of Christen Hansen's wife Margrethe, 6 January 1741
#3 right-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-894W-Y4R7?i=165&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No 3 Fest. Epiph: Christen Hansøns hustru af Poller:
No 3 Feast Day Epiphany (6 January) Christen Hansen's wife of Pollerup


Christen Hansen and Anna Pedersdatter, married 22 March 1741
#1 left-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-YDSG?i=212&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No. 1. d. 9. Febr. havde Enkemanden Christen
Hansen af Poller trolovelse med Anna
Pedersdatter ibid.Skiftebrev loves til bryllups
dagen, og at saa intet er som forestaaende
Ægteskab kand hindre caverer undertegnede
Dannemænd.
                     NPS                                                LAS
Niels Pedersen af Roebyelille    Lars Andersen af K:bye
                                                            Copulerede d. 22. Martÿ

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The first Christen Hansen marriage I will call CH1.  The second individual will be CH2.
The first Hans born I will call Hans1 and the second will be Hans2.

I believe CH1 and Margrethe are parents of Hans2 and Anna for these reasons:
-Rasmus Christiansen's wife, Katherine from Pollerup is a witness at both christenings
-Anna Pedersdatter of Pollerup is a witness at Anna's christening and a year later marries CH1
-Lars Andersen is a witness to their betrothal, Lars Andersen's wife of Keldbylille presents Hans2 at the alter and Lars Andersen of Keldby is a witness at CH1's next marriage.  Since there are two places with this same Lars Andersen it probably represents at least two different people but the betrothal witness could be the same as one of the other two and doesn't show up in the other family.

I believe CH2 and Giertrud are the parents of Hans1 and Jørgen for these reasons:
-Hans Svendsen was a witness to their betrothal and Hans Svendens daughter Mette presented Jørgen at the alter
-Christen Hansen is referred to as Huusmand in both of their births.  I think CH2 is older than CH1 because his wife is older so it would be more likely he was a smallholder first.  Later they are both referred to as Gaardmand.  I know this doesn't tie these two children to CH2 specifically but it does suggest they should be in the same family.  Furthermore the burial of Anna and CH1's wife don't include the title huusmand so that would go along with the logic that CH2 is the huusmand.



Can you please show me the holes in my logic so I can try to make a decision of who belongs in which family?

Thanks,

Ric



Fanefjord, Mønbo, Præstø

Ralph Rasmussen

Asides- -

Christen Hansen of Kielbylille may not have become a CH of Pollerup.  The death record and probate of the 'rytter' should cast some light on the question of whether CH already had a house to call his own in Kelbylille, or had married himself to one or even a farm tenancy.

Have you searched for the 'rytter's death, or the death of the former wife of the CH betrothed in April?

I haven't followed your logic through, but would put some credence in the distinct sets of sponsors.

Another logic in separating families is in the naming of the childrens' children, as an elder  daughter   usually has her grandmother's given name.
Med venlig Hilsen
Ralph Rasmussen
<1850 Hammer herred, Præstø

Ric Rasmussen

Thank you, Ralph.  I had looked at the rytters death record but hadn't paid too much attention to it.  Here it is along with a son and datter. 

Burial of Hans Christiansen, 15 June 1734 and son & daughter
#18, #25 & #26 left-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94W-YCW1?i=163&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
18. Fer. 3tie Pent: Rÿtter Hans Christian af Pollerup
25. Dom: 2da p  ?  Rÿtter Gd? Hans Christiansen Søn af Pol:
26. ?  7da Julÿ Rÿtter Gd? Hans Christiansen Datter ibid

I could use help on the dates of the children.  Also does it say that he is "Gaardmand?"  That would mean he left a farm to his wife correct?  That supports CH from Keldbylille staying in Pollerup.  My first assumption had been that CH from Keldbylille went back there but Giertrud's death record says she is still in Pollerup.

Burial of Christen Hansen's wife, Giertrud, 10 December 1755
#22 right-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994W-YCM9?i=168&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
No. 22 d 10de Decembr: GM: Christen Hansøns hustru, Giertrud, af Poll: 55 aar gl.
No. 22 the 10th of December farm owner Christen Hansen's wife, Giertrud from Pollerup, 55 years old

So I think that would support CH2 being in Pollerup and having a farm if that really says Gaardmand?  But why would Hans Christiansen be Gdmand and then CH2 be referred to as Huusmand?

The death of the former wife of CH betrothed in April I had not included in this list.  Here it is:

Burial of Anna and stillborn child, 10 February 1737
#4 & #5 right-hand side
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94W-YCWP?i=164&wc=M5KZ-K6B%3A357517501%2C357801401%2C358051401%2C358051402&cc=2078555
4 Dom 5 p. Epiph. Christen Hansens hustru af Pollerup ud Cer:
5 Eod. die Christen Hansens dødfødt barn af Pol: ud Cer:
4 Sunday 5th after Epiphany (10 February) Christen Hansen's wife from Pollerup without ceremony
5 Same day Christen Hansen's stillborn child from Pollerup without ceremony

Does that help?  It doesn't suggest he owns any land at that point which would suggest he is CH1 without the title Huusmand for the two births in question?

I have not looked for any probate records because I am not sure where to look for them.  I would appreciate some direction.

Finally the only grandchildren I know of so far are the children of Jørgen.  His first daughter is named Anna but his second daughter is named Giertrud and there is no daughter named Margrethe so perhaps that means I do have him with the right parents?

Thanks again.  I know this is pretty convoluted which is why I am reaching out for help.  I appreciate any help.

Ric
Fanefjord, Mønbo, Præstø

Ralph Rasmussen

I haven't wrapped my head around all the details.

But I do have one important bit, for now and in future:  That odd abbreviation before Hans Christian comes to 'sl', salige, the late HC, not Gm, gaardmand.  We are left with the fact that on this page no one is designated a gaardmand or a husmand.

Med venlig Hilsen
Ralph Rasmussen
<1850 Hammer herred, Præstø

Ric Rasmussen

Thank you, Ralph.  I will spend some more time on it.
Fanefjord, Mønbo, Præstø

Ric Rasmussen

I have spent quite a bit more time with this.  Here are my conclusions and rationale.  I have tried to consolidate them as much as possible.  I know it is a lot to go through and I appreciate any time or effort spent on this.  Particularly, I would like some comments on my bolded statements.  Are they accurate conclusions of the customs in Denmark at that time?

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Between the years 1737 and 1741, four children are born to Christen Hansen (CH1 or CH2): Hans (H1), Hans (H2), Anna and Jørgen.  H1 and H2 are born close enough together that it can't be the same mother.  The same is true for Anna and Jørgen.

Title
H1 and Jørgen's father are referred to as Huusmand so they are probably siblings whereas H2 and Anna's father does not have that title. Years later when CH2 marries Sidse Larsdatter, he is referred to as Huusmand so CH2 is the Huusmand. I think that further makes sense because CH2 was from Keldbylille but when he marries Giertrud they stay in Pollerup rather than go to Keldbylille.  That would suggest that she had some land in Pollerup that CH2 then became the owner of.   Sometime after marrying Anna Pedersdatter or perhaps at the time of the marriage (which is after the death of Margrethe, the mother of two of these children), CH1 acquires a farm because when most of CH1 and Anna Pedersdatter's children are born he is referred to as Gaardmand.

Relatives
Jørgen was presented at the alter by Hans Svendsen's daughter, Metthe from Keldbylille.  She is probably CH2's sister.  They share the same father and at Jørgen's birth she was 20 and not married.  That would suggest H1 and Jørgen are children of CH2 (son of Svend and brother of Metthe).  To add to the confusion, Anna is presented at the alter by someone with the name Metthe Hansdatter but she is from Keldby not Keldbylille and is not listed as someone's daughter or wife so I would suspect she was older.

Anna Pedersdatter from Pollerup is a witness at Anna's christening and a year later she marries CH1 suggesting Anna is CH1's daughter.

*****************

Peder

Peder (P1) is born and buried in 1742.  Another Peder (P2) is born in 1743 to Gaardmand CH.  Starting in 1745, Anna Pedersdatter's name is listed with the births of the children and CH is referred to as Gaardmand (so CH1).  This suggests that P2 is also their child. It was common in Denmark at that time (and is seen among the other children of that family) that if a child dies, the next child was given the same name.  Therefore I believe P1 is also a child of CH1 and Anna.


Thanks again,

Ric
Fanefjord, Mønbo, Præstø