Anne Elisabeth Speis - born 1764 in Haderslev ?

[Christina Kaul]

Dear all,

as you were all so helpful with my recent research into the origins of the GOLDT family, I hope you might also help me with my other dead end in this family saga !

I am looking for information on Jacob Goldt's mother - ANNE ELISABETH SPEIS (also writtten SPAIS)

The information I have on her is really limited.

Jacobs parents Detlev Jacob Goldt and Elisabeth Speis married in 1791 in St. Petri church in Kobenhavn.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=156137#156137,26144740

Its says that she is from Hadersleben / Haderslev.

The only other information I found on her is from the 1787 census, when she already lived in Kobenhavn and her age points towards a birth date around 1764 (which is much younger than her husband who was born in 1749).

http://www.ddd.dda.dk/asp/alle_opl.asp

I checked the church books of Haderslev Domkirke and Gamle Haderslev St. Severin 1765-1767 and could not find any mention of the family name Speis.

Detlev Jacob Goldt and Anne Elisabeth Speis had five children, of which three died early. The first child was born just a month after the wedding in August 1791. It seems they already had a boy before getting married because Joh. Henrich Goldt dies
on 28.9.1798 at the age of 9 years. The last baptism was Jacob in 1798. That's the last trace I have from Anne Elisabeth Speis.  All baptism and death entries are in St. Petri.

I also found an odd baptism in Trinitas Church in Kobenhavn where the parents of Christian Jacob Detlef are Andreas Goldt and Johanne Elisabeth Speis ! As both family names are rather rare, this seems a strange coincidence....

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=157745#157745,26472267

The other odd thing is that the 1801 census has Detlev Jacob Goldt living alone in Kobenhavn with status 'married'.

Son Jacob Goldt married 1825 in Vienna. The wedding entry in the Vienna Church book states that both parents were at that time already dead.

http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/05-st-florian-matzleinsdorf/02-13/?pg=110

The father Detlev Jacob Goldt died in 1824 in Kobenhavn. But no trace of Anne Elisabeth Speis.

If anyone has an idea how I could find the birth and death entries of Anne Elisabeth Speis, this would be just great !

Best regards, Christina

[Christian Konstmann Autzen]

Speis - or Spais - or may be Spies.

Here is a Jørgen Spies, born in Odense, april 1735, Odense Sct Knud's church. He got children in Oksenvad parish in Haderslev county 1th Februar 1776, Christina Wilhelmina Spies.

Jørgen's father was soldier Wilhelm Spies from Odense - "Rytter Wilhelm Spies, fra ritmester Kärdlers kompagnie, bliver trolovet den 20. september 1730 med Kirstine Lisbeth Jürgensdatter".

I got this about Spies:

As Wilhelm's 1. son is "Andreas" Wilhelm's father may be an Andreas and then may be this:

Andreas Spies
Arbre généalogique de SPIES- ORONA PIQUER
BIRTH: dd mm 1688 - Siegen-Wittgenstein, Germany
PARENTS: name surname

NAME:
Andreas Spies
EXCERPT:
TITLE: Descendants of Andreas Wilhelm Spies and Meika Marie

Tobias Spies (1659 - 1724)
Found 10 Records, 10 Photos and 49,000 Family Trees
Born in Feudingen, Germany on 6 Mar 1659 to Johannes Spies and Merga Stoltz. Tobias married Anna Eulalia Strack and had 8 children. Tobias married Anna Julian Banffer and had a child. He passed away on 1 Jan 1724 in Bermershausen, Germany.

Parents

Johannes Spies
1634-1709

Merga Stoltz
1632-1688
Spouse(s)

Anna Eulalia Strack
1658-1703
Children
Johan Simon Spies
Franz Spies
Andreas Spies
Johan Curt Spies
Johan Peter Spies
Johan Crafft Spies
Anna Chari Spies
Johan Casper Spies


Name Meaning for "Spies"
metonymic occupational name for a spear maker, from Middle High German spiez 'spear', 'pike', or an occupational name from the same word in the sense 'soldier armed with a spear'.

Fra hjemmesiden: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spies_von_B%C3%BCllesheim

Geschichte [Bearbeiten]

Das Geschlecht erscheint erstmals 1319 urkundlich mit Ludewikus filius (Sohn des) Christiani de Buellesheim.[1] Im Herzogtum Jülich bekleidete die Familie das Amt des Erbschenks.
Die Stammreihe beginnt mit dem Ritter und Herzoglich jülischem Hofmarschall Heinrich Ysaak von Büllesheim auf Büllesheim, urkundlich 1387-1369.
Im Herzogtum Jülich, Kurköln, Luxemburg, der Pfalz und Nachbargebieten waren mehrere Familienzweige aufgeschworen, so z. B. wegen Burg Satzvey, Büllesheim, Oberehe, Schweinheim, Schloss Allner, Burg Bubenheim, Frechen, Langenfeld, Untermaubach, Haus Rath (Düren), Schönstein und Loersfeld.
Die Familie gehört der Rheinischen Ritterschaft an und stellte mehrfach deren Ritterhauptmann. Die Linie zu Maubach starb mit dem Sohn des preußischen Generals Otto Spies von Büllesheim aus. Die einzig noch existierende Linie ist die zu Haus Hall in Ratheim, welche aus der Linie zu Schweinheim, später Rath hervorgegangen ist. Sie ist seit 1895 auch im Besitz der Burg Metternich bei Euskirchen. 1501 befiehlt Papst Alexander VI in einer Bulle dem Erzbischof von Köln den Streit zwischen dem Deutschen Orden und Wernher Spies zu schlichten.

Namensträger [Bearbeiten]

Wilhelm Spies von Büllesheim, Abt der Abtei Michaelsberg (Siegburg) 1419-1446
Wernher Spies von Büllesheim, Landkomtur des Deutschen Ordens 1486-1501
Wernher Spies von Büllesheim, Landkomtur des Deutschen Ordens 1639-1643
Klara Franziska Spies von Büllesheim, Äbtissin des Stift Gerresheim (1663–1685)
Maria Sophia Spies von Büllesheim, Äbtissin des Stift Gerresheim (1685–1694)
Jakob Ferdinand Spies von Büllesheim, Komtur der Deutschordenskommende St. Aegidius in Aachen(1729–1734)
Otto Spies von Büllesheim, Königlich preußischer General
Dr. Adolf Freiherr Spies von Büllesheim aus Ratheim war von 1972-1987 Mitglied des Deutschen Bundestages für den Wahlkreis Heinsberg
Elisabeth Freifrau Spies von Büllesheim, Vize-Präsidentin und Generaloberin des Malteser Hilfsdienstes


Greatings
Christian

[Christina Kaul]

Thanks Christian,

I have asked myself if Speis and Spies are the same name. Spies(s) is obviously much more common in Denmark.

But all the records I found - wedding of son Jacob, 4 birth entries of sons in St. Petri and Kobenhavn 1787 census use the spelling Speis (except one using Spais).

In German the two names sound quite different and also have different meanings: Speis means Food, whereas Spies means a Spear. On the other hand in old German both Speis and spiesen might have coexisted as term for eating.

I just hope that the reference to Haderslev is correct but maybe it refers to Haderslev Amt.

Is there a map or list of all the parishes in Haderslev Amt so I can perhaps screen them ?

I also would need to better target the birth date (I have seen in other census entries mistakes by almost 10 years) - therefore the death entry of Anne Elisabeth Speis and an age indiciation would be useful. Any ideas how to search for that ?

The family - or at least the boys Carl Christian and Jacob - were still in Kobenhavn in 1813 as they got confirmated in St. Petri in 1811 and 1813. But no idea if the mother was still alive. 

Regards,

Christina

[Inger Buchard]

The census database offers a map of the parishes of Haderslev amt
https://www.dis-danmark.dk/kipkort/kort/hade1940.gif

Don't care about the colours - they tell if the actual census is indexed

Inger Buchard

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Christina

I too is sure that the name Speis is correct, but of course the census-writer and the priests could easely spell it wrong ex. Spies, Spiess, Spais etc. The name is very seldom in denmark, but i have heard about it also in newer time.

I looked through the Haderslev churchbooks from 1762- 1768 and only found 2 persons with similar names : Leutnant Christian Friederich Spies, (opslag 13 and 20 ) in the 2 books  and mademoiselle (jungfrau) Maria Elizabeth Charlotte Spies, (opslag 39 + 48) , they are both withnesses at baptises,  and she is confirmated oktober 1764 as Margrethe Elizabeth Spies(en) (opslag 164)  The family in Øxenvad - Oksenvad is families of Wilhelm Spies- and it does'nt look as if they are of your family.

If they are from the military they moved around as the father got new jobs or the regiment moved around, so its often very complicated to find where they have been and where their children are born. Therefor she could have said Haderslev because she is told, that they lived there around her birth or similar. I have also looked the confirmation through, but for Vor frue the periode from 1766- to 1682 are not written down- and she - or anybody with the name Speis/Spais,Spies etc is not mentioned in the lists over Contitutions.

I have found an Ane Elisabeth Spies in Vordingborg, Præstø, in the 1845 census born 1767 could that be yours???
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=8202#8202,197128

I cannot read if she is married or not married- I think it says unmarried but...
also I cannot read her birthplace, something with a B.. I think - she is a "fattiglem", - "armwoman" she got money from the commune to live for.

If one search in familysearch.org there are very few Speis and Spies in the 1700 century and only those you already know with Jacob Goldt- so it didn't give anything. -and those descendant of Willhelm Spies .
mvh
Grethe

maybe you should try to search about where the name came from in Germany or Holland or even France. I have an idea that the name is of juish origin , if so they could be some of the families who came to Fredericia in that time.

[Christina Kaul]

Hi Grethe,

thanks for all that effort. It is true that Haderslev might not be the key to all this but it is the only location reference I have ! That's why I hope that the death record might help.

I know the whereabouts of Jacob Detlef Goldt quite well. He was born in 1749 in Kovenhavn. His father Auditeur Henrich Goldt died there in 1754. Then his mother Drude Sophie With moved with her three small children to Herfølge near Køge - no idea yet why ! That's where the three children got confirmated in 1763 and 1766. The youngest daughter died 1783 in Køge. The 1787 census shows Drude With and the oldest daughter in Køge, where Drude also died in 1788.

On the other hand the 1787 census shows both Anna Elisabeth Speis (looking for a job) and Jacob (Detlef) Goldt (Kontor Bedienter) already in Kobenhavn. The two must have had an illegitimate son in 1789 and decided to get married in 1791 when the second child was on its way. Jacob was the last child born in 1798. The 1801 census has Jacob Detlef Goldt as married but living alone. Where was the rest of the family ? Was the mother already dead and the sons aged 3 and 5 placed somewhere ? But should then the census not refer to Jacob Detlef as a widower ? In any case the boys get confirmated in Kobenhavn in 1811 and 1813.

I think the Ane Elisabeth Spies you found in Præstø cannot be the right one. She is listed as unmarried and Jacob's mother was dead by 1825 when he got married in Vienna.

Would perhaps the inheritance of Jacob Detlef Goldt - he died in Kobenhavn in 1824 - include any reference to his deceased wife ?

Finally, I remain intrigued by this weird baptism in 1787 in Trinitas church in Kobenhavn with parents Andreas Goldt and Johanne Elisabeth Speis. This must somehow be a part of the puzzle but I cannot fit it in at all.....

Regards,

Christina

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Charlotte

I have thought of something , which I find a little peculiar. That is, that Anna Elisabeth stays alone in Copenhagen at an age of 23. girls of better families does'nt stay alone in the city, And if they stays away from home, they always stays with families or very close friends.
But you tell that she and Jacob already had a son in 1789? before they marrie

And she stays in Nyboder where people from "Holmen" stays- the workers who worked either at the military or build and took care of the navy -is her father a sailor and has left her behind.  How comes she could stay in Nyboder, probably with a sailors wife.

Girls living alone in that age would normally be of working class, that is the purest ones who have to move from home and work because there are no room for them anymore (no money, many children, no food, to little space,etc.), Therefore I thought, that something bad has happened to her-  her father/mother are dead, they are poor-gone concours (fallit), in prison etc. She has either left herself or is thrown out from home and then the words "looking for job" or "søger condition",that indicates she is without family and shall support herself.   Maybe her mother or father had remarried. Girls of better families doesn't work!!!!
. Did she know him in 1787?  

I beleive she is from Copenhagen, or she could have been a servant by his family., and this with Haderslev could be, she doesn't know shere she is born.  

You can look for Jakobs inheritance, at least- if you find it - her name will stay there , and if she is dead this will be noticed too.

regards
Grethe

[Christina Kaul]

Hi Grethe,

I actually share your view. A 23 old girl looking for a job in 1787 in Kobenhavn must be from a poor background. Could well be that she is from the countryside. At least in Austria poor people from the countryside went to Vienna to look for jobs. And perhaps the reference to Hadersleben was just a 'trick', I don't know if the priest asked for some type of documents - in Austria they had to do so only as of about 1780.

I think also the Goldt family experienced some social 'descent'. Timotheus Goldt was 'Justizrat' for the Rentekammeret whereas his brother Heinrich Detlef Goldt was Auditeur at the Livgaard - so both 'bourgeois' civil servants. Heinrich was married with Drude With - although I have not yet researched her birth record, she probably is from the Copenhagen von With family.
But Heinrich's son Jacob Detlev is Contor Bedienter and Scriber and dies 1824 in Almindelig hospital in Copenhagen, not really a place for the well-off ! And his son Jacob ends up as a carpenter in a poor district of Vienna.

Jacob Detlef Goldt and Ana Elisabeth Speis married on 8 July 1791 and son Christian Jacob was born on 14 August 1791. So she was pretty pregnant at the time of the wedding. The other children were born in 1793, 1796 and 1798. But in 1798 a son called Johann Henrich died at the age of 9 years - so he must have been born before the wedding, but I have not found his birth record.

I will see if I am lucky enough to find the inheritance of Jacob Detlef.

I would be interested in your interpretation that the 1801 census lists Jacob Detlef Goldt as married but living alone in Kobenhavn ?

Regards,

Christina

[Inger Toudal]

Anne Elisabeth Speis, 23 y, in the 1787 Census: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid679562 - see Original Source

Possibly a sister Anne Frideriche Spees, 13 y,  in the 1787 Census: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid677253

Another possible sister Wilhelmine Margrette Speis, 26 y, in the 1801 Census: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid924397

Lars Nielsen -                                                  
Margrethe Wilh. Caroline Speiss                                  Viet: 17.05.1801  
                                                                Sogn: Skt Hans Hospital (272A)  

- source: http://danbbs.dk/~stst/kbh_kbg_reg/

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118395#155757,26032956 - right page, bottom
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jacob Goldt, 28 y, in the 1787 Census: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid549936
- logerende 'lodger'

Jacob Ditløv Golt, 49 y, in the 1801 Census: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid995829 - see Original Source
- logerende 'lodger'
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jørgen Spiis in the 1803 Census, Oksenvad, Haderslev county: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid1816652

He died in 1811, survived by his wife, whom he had married in 1769, two sons, and a daughter:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17217146#202218,38335154 - No 5
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Maria Charlotte Elisabeth Spiis, 48 y, in the 1787 Census, Odense: https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/cid604829

She married Ole Mortensen 31 Aug. 1787: http://odensedatabasen.dk/kilde/vielse/201952

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Christina Kaul]

Hi Inger,

Thanks for all this ! The three Speis girls in Kobenhavn look very promising. I had not looked for a Spees spelling before. If I get this right Anne Elisabeth only lived a couple of streets from her possible mother Rebeke who had married a second time. Taking into account the age of children from first and second marriage, the time window to find the wedding should be rather narrow. And we can probably assume that Rebeke was living in the area already before her second marriage.

What parish should I look for ? Frederik's Kirke seems the closest, what other options should I consider ?

Would German speaking Danes use the local parish or a special German church like Sankt Petri ?

Thanks in advance for all your help,

Christina

[Inger Toudal]

Rebekke Spiis married 1781:
https://www.myheritage.com/research?formId=master&formMode=&action=query&exactSearch=0&useTranslation=1&qname=Name+fn.rebekke+ln.spees+fnmo.1&qbirth=Event+et.birth+ey.1744

https://www.sa.dk/da/hjaelp-og-vejledning/rigsarkivets-online-vejledninger/ - Kirkebøger

https://www.sa.dk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Fra_gade_til_sogn_Koebenhavn_1787.pdf

https://www.sa.dk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Fra_gade_til_sogn_Koebenhavn_1801.pdf

- maybe København Sankt Nikolaj Sogn (or one of the churches for the German-speaking population)

Johan Konrad Spiis died 1781:
https://www.myheritage.com/research?formId=master&formMode=&action=query&exactSearch=0&useTranslation=1&catId=1&qname=Name+fn.johan%2F3konrad+ln.spiis+fnmo.1&qbirth=Event+et.birth+ey.1744

Perhaps somebody with access to MyHeritage can help?

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Christina

Rebecca is married in Garnisons kirke -opslag 56, 1769-1799VJ and also churchbook 1780-1799V opslag 5. here she is engaged. And it is said she has a "Skiftebrev" (inheritance)

"Matthias Pedersen Friis U.E. og enken Rebecca Spiis. Skiftebrev forev. mht. ???? " I cannot read what is written at the engagement.

Also the first time she is married is garnison Chruch. She marries corporal johan conrad spiess the 27 april 1781

So He is not Anne Elisabeths father but of course he could be her brother. I haven't found him dead- so maybe he died oversees or during a battle. å

[Inger Toudal]

Engagement 14 Nov. 1780: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17114961#150074,24856355 - left page
- U.K. = Ungkarl 'bachelor'.  Enken 'the widow'.  Skiftebrev forevist 'letter of probate presented'.

- in Garnison's Danish congregation:  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17114961#150074,24856352

Marriage 18 Apr. 1781 in Garnison's Danish congregation: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17114961#150077,24856820 - right page

Johan Konrad Spiis must have died 1780, or earlier. His daughter was born 1774.

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Christina Kaul]

Hi Inger and Grethe,

Thanks for all the effort !

Here is what I now found about Rebekke Spiis:

Born around 1745
Marriage with Johan Konrad Spies 27.4.1774
Birth of daughter Anna Friedrich Sophia 29.5.1774
Johan Konrad Fries died in 1780
Marriage with Matthias Andersen Friis 18.4.1781
Three children
Matthias Friis died (he is from Abenraa where he was baptized 16.5.1751) 23.9.1795
Marriage with Anders Christian Froe 7.4.1797 (again Garnison Søgn)
Rebekke died 1.4.1829

Then we still have the Wilhelmine Caroline Speis that marries in 1801 in Sankt Hans Hospital Søgn.
On 12.4.748 Johanne Spies is baptised in Garnison Søgn (father Peter)
On 13.11.1787 Johanne Elisabeth Speis has a son baptised in Trinitas church

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Christina

I think I have found her....... I didn't understand why there was not anything in Haderslev, I wanted to test it once more, So I looked under dead and married people, and Found Christian Spey- others in DS-forum has asked for him and tell that the spelling are different. Spay, Spai, spei, Spëy, Speis so I beleive this is him and her-Anna Elisabeths parents- also with the birth in 1764 
here she is born:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=202586#202586,38400326

here her parents are married:


https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=201543#201543,38187156

And here is a homepage where you can se her brothers and sisters and granparents

http://hansana.dk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I05841&ged=segalt

The other children I think you can manage yourself.  What do you thin about that? don't you think this is reight???????

Greetings
Grethe

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi again Christina

Also I think, that the boy baptised in Trinitatis in 1787 is Detlevs and Anne Elisabeth. The name suits right -Stimmt... with the family names: Christian Jacob and Detlev....., who might die in an early age.  .
If they only spoke german the vicar could easily write wrong, Johanne for Anne- and also Andreas for Hendrich
as you see in Sct. Petri church, the first boy they baptised there- the parents are called Detlev Hendricsen and Catharina Elisabeth , so when Detlev have said f.ex. Detlev Jacob Hendrichsen Goldt, the vicar in a hurry-or because he didn't quite understand -  maybe - have written Andreas Goldt - and maybe asked how to spell Goldt.  

greetings
Grethe

[Inger Toudal]

I think Grethe has solved the puzzle!

The 2 youngest brothers mentioned on the homepage were born in Haderslev:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484606#237156,45125301 - right page

Johann Christian Spey's death record: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17216387#201529,38177190 - No 21

Wilhelmine Spey's, née Collin, death record: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17216387#201529,38177194 - No 35

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Christina

I will give you a short view of the danish history from 1790-to 1813 with Copenhagen as a centrum.

First I understand why Anne Elisabeth came to Copenhagen to find a job. Her father was an "afdanket" officer, (After german danken ab, abdanken). The pension was very little, and ex. in Copenhagen one sees a lot of former soldiers, who hungers and try to get jobs, and have difficulties to get some. In the military it was so, that an officers boys -and himself - could get some education and become skilled f. ex. a blacksmith, tailor, gunsmith, schumacher, carpenter etc. Esp. carpenters was wanted, and there where a lot of them in Copenhagen where they builded ships.  Soldiers often took jobs when they where not on duties,because the payment was poor. But in Denmark the skilled was organized in "lavs" = guilds , and if an outsider took the jobs it could result in prison, penalties or suspension from the city. So it was not easy, neither in the province to find a job.  So I think that her family was in a way poor after her father got on pension. He was lucky that his boys got an education within the military, we see that one of his son is a schumacher. They called the skilled worker, who could not enter a guild for "freemen"

So the eldest daughter Anne Elisabeth went to Copenhagen to look for a job, and met Detlev Goldt. To find a flat or something to live in was difficult too. If they got the boy in 1787 she would have been under 25 and therefore they should have the permission to marrie from her family.  But it is said in the churchbook, that they live in Tværgaden (Dronningens Tværgade) when the boy is baptised, so they have been in a logement of a kind, but maybe only for some month or until she has given birth, after that they had to find another place, and we find her alone, because they are not married. One could not live together as unmarried people, even if they succeded in getting children without!!!!.
About the boy it is only possible to find out what happened with him, if you find them in later census or at the "skiftebrev" when they died -if there are any. Maybe the boy became a fosterling.

At the end of 1700century  Copenhagen was a dirty and noxios town. All people lived within the bastions, over 100.000 lived there (today about 25.000) and they kept a lot of lifestock too, cattle, pigs, horses, hens, etc. The street had open gutters, where people through everything also their excrements etc. the water came from nearby lakes to the public waterpumps and springwaters.  

In 1793-1794 there were uprising in the city also in 1804 and in 1818 we had a uprising against the juish, mostly because of the economy crises. For ex. in the end of 1700 there was hunger in the city and also a foodration, - esp. bread - which also created uprising and protest. But the biggest protests in those years came from the carpenters from the navy and the sailors- the reason was an strictly surveillance of them and a bad payment. also the hunger created unrest and violenced gatherings .  For ex. should the bakers take care to have a special quantity of bread each day, and if they could not get floor enough, they many times baked bread under the statutory weight of bread -and people protested and sometimes they punished the baker, so the police had to have guards at the bakeries.  It was "rugbrød"- dark bread not white at that days. In 1813 the state went bankrupt.

The question about why Anne Elisabeth is not present at the census in 1801, could be that she is not home. In 1801 we had the "battle with the english navy" - where the english shut down the danish navy because whe had got in alliance with the russians, swedish and preussians against the english. If that means that people sended their families out in the country I don't know, - or maybe she is home to visit her family in Haderslev. But Anne could also be out bying food or washing or something, and if Detlev coulden't speak proper danish or understand it ,he might not understand that he also should mention his family, even if they are not psysically present. In 1807 Copenhagen was bombardet by the english after an siege, and that was awfully people died of hunger and the bombardment itself was also awfully with many, many houses burned and spoiled.

So they lived in a troubled time. Hoping this gives you a little insight of the life at that time.

venlig hilsen
Grethe

[Inger Toudal]

Anne Elisabeth's three brothers ended up on the island of Funen:

Odense, Vends, Gelsted, Holme huuse, , 4, FT-1801, A0511
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in houshold:     Occupation:     
Hans Peter Spei     36     gift      mand      indsidder huusmand og skomager     [died 1810]   
Elisabeth Larsdatter     41     gift      hans kone             
Johan Kristian Hansen     3     ugift      deres børn             
Birte Katrine Hansdatter     5     ugift      deres børn             
Wilhelmine Hansdatter     1     ugift      deres børn

Odense, Vends, Ejby, Eibye bye, i omnævnte huus, 34, FT-1801, A0515
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in houshold:     Occupation:
Johannes Spey     26     gift      mand      inderste og skomager og fast dragon     [died 1844]   
Christiane Mathisdatter     28     gift      hans kone             
Wilhelmine Johannesdatter     1     ugift      deres datter             
Barbara Jensdatter     62     enke      konens moder      er til ophold hos manden 

Odense, Vends, Ejby, Eiby By, et Huus, 36, FT-1834, C7508
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in houshold:     Occupation:
Johannes Spei     58     Gift            Skomager       
Kristiane Lassen     60     Gift            hans Kone       

Odense, Vends, Ejby, Eibye Bye, Huus, 20, FT-1840, C2858
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in houshold:     Occupation:
Johannes Sper     64     Gift            Skomager            
Kristiane Larsen     66     Gift            hans Kone      

Skomagersvend Johan Christian Spej from Frørup died 4 May 1820 in Nyborg:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17129112#174295,29318511 - right page

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17138047#180284,30576704 - No 11

An Elisabeth was born 17 Dec. 1764 in Sønderborg, her younger brothers Johannes Barthol and Johann Christian in Haderslev.
Their parents were married 15 May 1764 in Haderslev.

This could be their sister Margaretha, mentioned in the death records of the parents 1793:

København, København (Staden), Snarens Kvarter, Snarens Kvarter, Matr. 160, 687, FT-1801, A5027
Name:     Age:     Marital status:     Position in houshold:     Occupation:
Andreas Christian Palle     47     Gift      Huusbond      Prokurator       
Anna Ingeborg Arentzen     34     Gift      hans Kone             
Magdalene Margrethe Palle     17     Ugift      mandens Datter af 1. Ægteskab             
Hans Christian Giessing     14     Ugift      konens Søn af 1. Ægteskab      Moder g Palle       
Jørgen Kierumgaard     31     Ugift      Tienestefolk      Fuldmægtig       
Lars Nielsen     28     Ugift      Tienestefolk      Gaardkarl       
Wilhelmine Caroline Margr. Speis     26     Ugift      Tienestefolk      Tj. Pige

Lars Nielsen -                                                 
Margrethe Wilh. Caroline Speiss                                  Viet: 17.05.1801 
                                                                 Sogn: Skt Hans Hospital (272A) 
- source: http://danbbs.dk/~stst/kbh_kbg_reg/

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118395#155757,26032956 - right page, bottom

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Inger Toudal]

The Battle of Copenhagen took place about two months after the Census 1 Feb. 1801:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Copenhagen_(1801)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Wars_(Scandinavia)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Carolina Speis, 14 y, had her confirmation in Haderslev Vor Frue in 1787:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17216387#201521,38174094 - No 30

- could be the daughter Margaretha mentioned in the parents' death records 1793 in Haderslev,
and Margrethe Wilhelmine Caroline Speis(s) found in Copenhagen 1801.

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Christina Kaul]

Ladies,

I am just amazed how you found all this ! I have not replied earlier as I am traveling for the moment. I am actually for the moment in Anholt with very stormy weather and very bad internet connection. I will digest all the information you provided and then I will be back with my thoughts.

Regards,

Christina

[Christina Kaul]

Grethe, Inger,

I now went through all the documentation you sent. I think Grethe found the right family, in particular the fact that we have Wilhelmine Margarethe Caroline and Ann Elisabeth as two sisters of the same family at the same time in Kobenhavn, is convincing. As Wilhelmine was the mothers name, a Carolina was konfirmated in Haderslev and a Margarethe is mentioned in the death entries of the parents, this all points to the same girl getting married in Kobenhavn in 1801. So the two sisters seem to fit very well.

I also had seen the name Spey before but had not made any connection to Speis - also strange that Jacob referred to his mother at the wedding in Vienna as Speis if her real name was Spey !

In Austria it was quite common that people could not get a marriage permission for different reasons and then couples just had children without being married and sometimes married only later. So it would not be surprising if Detlev Jacob and Ann Elisabeth had children before the wedding. But the boy who died in 1798 with name Johann Henrich Goldt cannot be the one who got baptised in 1787 as Christian Jacob Detlef - but maybe they had already two sons before the marriage, namely in 1787 and 1789.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=157745#157745,26472267

I am still not clear how one can confuse Detlef Jacob Henrichsen with Andreas ! How do you read the profession of Andreas in the baptism record - something with skriver in the end ?

I checked on the witnesses of the baptism. Johann Helmer Saddelmager is also German and I found his wedding and baptisms of his children in St. Petri church. The Lucie Concordia Helmer mentioned in the baptism is his daughter. But I do not understand why the name Goldt is mentioned with her name, she was not married at that time and her mother was not a Goldt either.

Grethe, also thanks to all the background on Kobenhavn at that time. I had been aware that Denmark was 'on the wrong side' in the Napoleonic wars but had not really connected the 1801 census with the events of that time. So it could be quite likely that Anne Elisabeth had temporarily moved out of town with the two small boys. There still remains the question when she died.

The death entry of Detlef Jacob in 1824 unfortunately does not provide any information about his wife or children. I will check if I can find something about his inheritance - otherwise I will leave this as unresolved !

Best regards from Anholt,

Christina

[Inger Toudal]

Speis is probably the genitive of Spey: Spey's daughter.

Andreas Goldt is Kahytskriver: https://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=kahytsskriver

Mad. Cathrine Snedker Buxens Enke bar det, og Jfr. Lucie Concordia Helmer holdt Huen.

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Christina Kaul]

Thanks Inger ! And probably Grethe is right that this is another baptism of Detlef Jacob Goldt and Anna Elisabeth Speis. I read Kahutskriver but had no idea what a 'ship writer' should be ! And I probably was too focused so I read 'holdt' for 'goldt' !
Thanks for all your help, Christina

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Christina

I have found Detlev Jacob Goldts "skifte". here it is:
Københavns skiftekommission, forseglingsprotokol 1825-1825 bog nr. 2. sag nr. 47, folio 65, opslag in arkivalieronline.dk : 34  

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515080#34594,32990187

In danish is written (there are some words I cannot read, but ask here for them)

2. august 1824 indfandt Skiftecommissionen sig ved Fuldmægtig Schram og ved skifte-
skriveren Constitueret?  Copist Mohr med Betjenten Mor i
huuset nr. 24 Læderstræde for at foretage Skifte efter
forrige Kontorist Ditlev Jacob Goldt som her d. 9 denne maaned er død.
Ved forretningen var tilstede den afdødes nærmeste livsarving 1 søn Carl
Christian Goldt  Kunst...??? 28 aar gammel. han anviste Boets ejendele som ved
betjenten blev registreret og til ? ...
1 gl. (gammel) frakke, 1 par do. (dvs. gamle) benklæder
videre blev ikke anvist af den nærværende Søn og han vidste
ej videre at opgive til indtægt for Boet. Da der for øvrigt intet videre
var til Behandling og den afdødes Søn har besørget Begravelsen
hvilke Udgifter langt overstiger Vurderingsbeløbet blev de registrerede
Effekter sønnen....??? udlagte og behandlingen af dette Bo sluttet.
Carl C. Goldt,
Schram, Mohr

It tells that Detlev already are burried and the son has paid for that. It also tells that Carl is the only heir. In the flat or house- in Læderstræde - (I suppose it is a flat in a 2 to 4 stock house) there is NOTHING but a coat and som trousers. Of course Detlev has not lived on the floor ,so I think that Carl has taken what he wants and sold the rest for payment of the burriel after his father has "left" the flat .  as you can see no one else are present and at that time Jacob was in Wienna.

Another thing. I have also found the dead of Anne Elisabeth - because I have got hooked in tracing the family - and with her dead I also found something very interesting. But before I reveal it here, I want to ask you if, I shall do it. I my self find it very joyfull to search after old traces, and I don't want to take the joy (or effort) from you- so to say- to spoil your own pleasentnes or happines by tracing old informations in arcives.

Therefore I ask you-   Shall I give my informations here with the link to the book and in what archive the informations stand in. Its very interestning informations.


About the baptisme of the child i 1787 my reasons are. Both Goldt and  Speis are very rare names. It could be, that Detlev had a cousin called Andreas, but that he should have married one called Johanne Speis, I find very peculiary and would be very rare too.

Sometimes the priests didn't note right names and dates etc. He might not remember what the parents has told him, as he write it in the book after the baptism and  probably after the parents has left. He could be drunk or had other things in mind etc. Also he could have changed the names so that the boy should have been called Andreas or Johan....? Who knows


Greetings
Grethe

[Christina Kaul]

Good morning Grethe,

First of all thanks for all the effort you are putting into this research. I am grateful for everything you find - I only know the basic tools for family research in Denmark as my family comes from different parts of the old Austrian-Hungarian Empire and that's where I know best how to find documentation. So no worry about 'revealing' anything - I probably would not be able to find it myself !

I am surprised Jacob does not figure in the inheritance. In the inheritance documents I am familiar with, also absent children are mentioned and their whereabouts are specified. Also we can assume that Jacob was still in contact with his family, otherwise he would not mention at his wedding 1825 in Vienna that both his parents were dead. So he obviously knew about the death of his father.

I checked the first names of the children of Detlef Jacob and Ann Elisabeth against their fathers. Actually the sons' names are all recompositions of the grand fathers names, so it is for sure the right Spey family you found.

Ann Elisabeth Speis - father Johann Christian Spey
Detlef Jacob Goldt - father Heinrich Detlef Goldt

Children:
1787 Christian Jacob Detlef
1789 Johann Heinrich
1791 Christian Jacob
1793 Heinrich Detlef
1796 Carl Christian
1798 Jacob

I also found in the meantime the wedding of Ann Elisabeth's grandparents (although only in a index as the church books are not digitalised). Johann Christopher SPEU married on 27 July 1729 Ann Lisbeth Roeks in Trittau / Holstein. They had another son Johann Heinrich who stayed in the area and had several descendants. So the family name changed in three generations from SPEU to SPEY to SPEIS !

I am looking forward where you found the death of Ann Elisabeth and what other exiting news you have about her !

Regards,

Christina

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Christina

About Jacob, he was in Wienna, and his brother may not know his adresse, because as you will se here, the family was split up in different manners. And in fact had a sad history.

Anne Elisabeth died the 13 the of march 1809 and I found her in the inheritance letters  for Copenhagen

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=156141#156141,26145899

At her dead it says she is schneiderfrau?? but at the census and in the churchbook I might read he is skrædder. Probably at the danish navy  ... Please let som people here help you with the reading and transcription

Landsover-, samt Hof- og stadsretten, Københavns skiftekommission , Forseglingsprotokol 1808-1809 5B, sag nr. 735, Folio 244, opslag 125 i arkivalieronlin.dk shows her "skifte", inheritance letters .
You can also let people here help you with the translation

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16515080#35962,32942814

Anne Elisabeth is (perhaps) married with Christopher Lösekraut and has 2 boys with him.  I haven't found her marriage. But she had to be divorced, and it is a little difficult to find the divorce. She is married in 1791 and got Jacob Detlev in 1800 according to the inheritance letter. You say in 1798.  So she must divorce from 1798 and at that time it took at least 3 years before they could get the final divorce . But i haven't succed in finding her marriage with Christoph. 

Have you searched if the first boys are dead??? Christian from 1787, Johann 1789 and Christian 1793 . I think Christian from 1787 is dead, because its normal to baptise the next born child with the same name as the one who died, and remember the clerks and priest could easely write wrong names, in the churchbooks at that time ......

Here are the census from 1801, and it looks like they are married- and they also say that it is their first marriage. !!!!

København staden, indre by, Rosenborg kvarter, 9 afdeling, street: Åbenrå no. 269, 4, 2 sal (825)
It's a little difficut to read, and the transcription is not good . Losekray I think it is written, and about his job I think it is Skrædder M. (for mester) by the Comodie (or compagnie) ????????

But she probably died of either TB or Breastcancer - it says breastsickness

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=27525#27525,2923284

Christoph dies in 1825 and didn't remarrie - see Sct. Petri church

Gustav Emmanuel is born 23 august 1801 (opslag 142 in sct. Petri)
Henrik Detlev is born 1. december 1805 (opslag 232 in Sct. Petri)


So now you know the reason, why she doesn't stay with Detlev in 1801- she has already another man. And to die from 2 small boys who are not the widowers own is awfully. Maybe Detlev has taken care of them, but I doubt. Carl Christian is already 11 or 13 years if born in 1796 so he might go out -or has been send out to own his own money, but Jacob 9 or 11 years what happened with him., he might also have to own his own money. If they stayed at their father Detlev one couldn't tell. Because we have the next census in 1834, and at that time Detlev is dead. No doubt Jacob later on went abroad.

It seams she and Detlev shouldn't have married, maybe they only did it because of the children and to get a place to live in. We don't know if Detlev drank, was violent, lost all their money on different Games or she simply fall in love with Christoph......At that time the drinking among people was "normal", the schnaps was very cheap and the water undrinkable, and at the job the saliers, soldier and also the skilled and unskilled workers got schnaps as e part of their payment each day, also the violence was common, It was common to beat both the wife and the children- but there might be a limit for both things.

I will try to find the divorce, if you when staying here in Denmark goes to the rigsarkivet , you find the archieve for divorcing here: .


Stadsretten, Lands-, Over- samt Hof og stadsretten samt Københavns byret.  A long and difficult header.   

After 1806 it should be found in:

Københavns Stadsarkiv: Københavns Magistrat: Separationsprotokoller 1806-1857 (I protokollerne henvises til sagerne, der omfatter anmodninger om separation og magistratens svar.)


regards
Grethe

[Grethe Leerbech]

Hi Christina
The archives are not digitalised.
If you go to the Rigsarkiv i think this is the archieve to look in.
It would be interessting to read how and especially why the got divorced.

https://www.sa.dk/daisy/m2r?id=5818665

maybe the "Stadsretten, etc.has the original case management or documents written down (selve sagsbehandlingen)

regards
Grethe

[Inger Toudal]

In the probate 12 Aug. 1824 of forrige Contoirist Ditløv Jacob Goldt it says:
Ved Forretnin-
gen var tilstede den afdødes eneste Livsarving 1 Søn
Carl Christian Goldt, Kunstdreiersvend 28
Aar gammel.

Maybe Ditløv Jacob was living in a rented, furnished room/apartment, which could explain the absence of furniture among his belongings.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Journeyman tailor Christ. Reinhold Lösekraut's son Christoph Reinhold, 3/4 years old, was buried 29 Oct. 1804 (Brustkrankheit):
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=156141#156141,26145945 - left page

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=156141#156141,26145861 - No 151

1801 Census, København, Aabenraa 269: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=27525#27525,2923284

- I read his profession as Skræder Mester ved Comedie Huset.

Widower Christoph Reinholdt Lösekraut, Schneidermeister, remarried 6 Dec. 1809:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118447#156138,26144929 - left page

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118447#156138,26144888 - No 52

- having a new wife, he was probably able to take care of Anne Elisabeth's two sons of her 1st marriage.

He died 11 Jun. 1829: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17224660#205729,39045160

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17224660#205729,39044884 - No 47

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17118451#156158,26150544 - Brustschwäche
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

5 Goldt records are listed in the Sankt Petri death index 1783 - 1813:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=156141#156141,26145940
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Divorce records from Copenhagen 1797 - 1805 can be found at Københavns Stadsarkiv:
https://www.kbharkiv.dk/sog-i-arkivet/kilder-pa-nettet/agteskab/separation-og-skilsmisse

http://www.starbas.net/arkivserie.php?arkivserie_id=13298&laes_mere=ja

Venlig hilsen
Inger

[Christina Kaul]

What a story ! So we have here one of the rare early divorces !

Grethe, first of all, how did you find out that Ann Elisabeth Spey died under a different family name ?

The age references for Carl Christian Goldt and Jacob Goldt in the inheritance are definitely wrong. Carl Christian was born 17.11.1796 and Jacob was born on 6.11.1798 (both St. Petri). So the stepfather either did not know the exact age of the boys or on purpose made them younger.

The Austrian adminstration introduced around 1790 standardised forms for church books. For the wedding the age of the bride and groom had to be specified, if available even the exact birth date. That is why the wedding of Jacob 1825 in Vienna states his birth date as 6.11.1798 in Kopenhagen.

So the separation of the couple took place between 1798 and 1801. Interesting to note that the statements people made for the census did not get verified - otherwise Ann Elizabeth and Christoph Reinhold Losekraut could not have stated in 1801 that they were married both in first marriage.

Ann Elisabeth had six children with her first husband and then another three children with her second husband - all nine children are boys !

From the first marriage only two survived, namely the two youngest. Although infant mortality was high at that time, only the first child born in 1787 probably died as an infant. The other three boys died as children in 1794, 1796 and 1798 at the age of 1 year, 5 years and 9 years. Perhaps the divorce had something to do with the deaths of the children - with the last two deaths Ann Elisabeth was each time 8 months pregnant with the next child.

I found the wedding of Ann Elisabeth and Christoph Reinhold Losekraut - it took place only in 1808 in Holmens Kirke.

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=151585#151585,25193898

I think Christoph Reinhold Losekraut was a tailor, all the German church book entries call him a 'Schneidermeister'. His brother married in 1812 in St. Petri and Christoph was the witnesss. Also the brother was a tailor.

Inger, thanks for finding the second wedding of Christoph Losekraut in 1809. Maybe the most likely is that the stepfather took care of the two Goldt boys together with his two own boys (the third had died in 1804 as an infant). In any case, Carl Christian got confirmated in 1811, Jacob in 1813 and Immanuel August (born in 1801 as the oldest child of the second marriage) in 1817 - all in St. Petri.

Under the circumstances it is likely that Carl Christian and Jacob were not too interested in the death of their father in 1824. If the profession of Carl Christian mentioned in the inheritance is 'Kunstdreher', then the two brothers had learnt the same job as Jacob is referred to as a 'Drechsler' which I think is the same profession.

I will try to find the divorce in the Kobenhavn City Archive and report back.

Thanks for all that help - no way I would have even thought that Ann Elisabeth could have died under a different family name !

Regards,

Christina