Markgreves regiment, kaptajn Wilsteds kompagni i Rensburg, 1741

Startet af Lisa Petersen, 11 Feb 2019 - 21:43

Forrige emne - Næste emne

Niels Just Rasmussen

#60
Henrich Schöllermann as Ridefoged and Tolder/Zolder:

After Absolute Monarchy was introduced by Frederik III in 1660, they King started appointing civil servants from the "burgers" to positions formally monopolised by the aristocracy.
These civil servants (dommere, toldere, fogeder) had to swear an oath directly to the King and was appointed by him based on their qualifications!
The office could always be revoked if they were found to be corrupt or incompetent and was never hereditary.
Each town had to have 1 tolder and 1 toldskriver.

From 1676 corruption for a civil servant was punishable by death.
From 1683 document-forgery became illegal [my source doesn't mention the precise punishment].
From 1690 taking money from the coffers was punished by life-long slavery [tugthus].

So his jobs as "ridefoged" and later "tolder" were by the Kings appointment and working in Ålholm (royal holding) and Nysted (Købstad) he was never subordinate to any intermediate nobleman, but directly under the King (or for the case of Ålholm under the Widower-Queen?].

So he was solid in the middle class holding these positions and among the more prominent men of Nysted.
Nysted by the way had become a "købstad" in 1409 and by 1670 had 691 inhabitants.

One should really think that he acquired "Borgerskab" in Nysted.
Strangely I can't find them on Daisy, but familysearch says it has lists of Nysted Borgerskaber from 1663-1729.
These are not online yet.
See: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/533413?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Niels Just Rasmussen

#61
Rentekammeret.
Register til person- og stednavne i Rentekammerets kongelige resolutioner.
Schüllerman (Schullermann), Henrik.
Tolder i Nysted.
Cases: 3479, 8139, 8605, 11097, 16619, 16639
Source (p.333): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484360#236994,45104844

Case number 3479:
8th of January of 1680.
"Henrik Schüllerman maa nyde Tolderiet i Nysted, som førhen er lovet ham".
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484358#236983,45101226

So apparently Henrich Schöllermann had been promised a position as Tolder in Nysted and in early 1680 he got that appointment!

Don't have time to check the rest just now - but the sources are here: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/other/index-creator/75/6754/18484358

Grethe Leerbech

Hej Lisa

I have looked up in the 1690 "jordebog" and found following owners of Land and Farms in Asbo:

Kgl. Majestæt Farmers for Coldinghus- His majesty  farmers who as riders shall serve Koldinghus  6 farms and 1 Boel
Kgl. majestæt Riders for his army - 6 farms
The nobleman Jørgen Skeel Due - (I don't know what manor he owns)  buit it says he has 6 farms for "Sønderjyske" I think it means regiment . Also it points ou that he should live in sønderskev. He lived up to 1701 and had marry an Krabbbe, se link. 

https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I31250&tree=2


The nobleman Jacob Madsen (I don't know him and where he lives)  8 farms . He might be a priest, but I cannot get any informations about him on the net.

There is only one selfowner farm in asbo. - totally 27 farms

But totally there are 14 derelict farms in Asbo- so in 1690 there must have been something seriously happened maybe the black dead or soldiers to be enrolled or who has run away. It's many farms without  inhabitant

I didn't find any with name Hendrich(Henrik) or Schøllerman/Skøllerman in 1690 jordebog.

mvh
Grethe


Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Grethe Leerbech

I've found out that he should be a mayer in Christianshavn in Copenhagen. But he died in in 1653 and his wife in 1674, but one might find a "skifte" from him or his wife.  It stands in the jordebog- and it doesnø't say its his heirs who have the land and farms.

Grethe
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Grethe Leerbech

Hej Lisa

I found Jørgen Skeel Dues mannor it is Sønderskov gods, and there is also a register over his farmer from 1719-1796, but I cannot find any Schöllermand there, so it must be either owned by Jacob Madsens heirs or the crown.

If you are lucky to live near familysearch center or are able to get their material I can give you the titles over the land/ anf farm which belongs to the king: ''Danmark - Land and property:

1. "Jordebøger over det kgl. gods og rytterdistrikterne 1688-1763

and
2. Kopier over kronens skøder paa afhændet gods i hele danmark 1720-1727
3. Jordebøger og specialjordebøger over kgl. majestæts jordegods (samt landgilde jordebog over Dronningborg gods) 1680-1702.
The last part with Dronningsborgs is of no interest. but I think it is in the same film.

In Denmark we can only order these film at the Rigsarkivet, they are not at the net, but I think you can order them to a nearby library in USA.

They are of course difficult to read, but they will describe the farm and the owner of the farm in this period. so if Peder Hendriksen Schøllermann and his sons belongs to the king at this periode, both in Asbo, bække, Verst and Åle so you will find them .



Grethe
Thyholm,Vang, Gislum,Hornum,Hindsted, Slet, Års i Aalborg a. Ginding,Ringkøbing a.Rinds, Fjends,Hindborg,Viborg a. Nybøl, Sottrup,Sønderbog a.sogne i Tyskland, Sunds,Svendborg a.Tuse,Års,Løve i Holbæ

Lisa Petersen

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 18:30
Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokol (1653-1919):

24. Februar 1673.
Hendrich Schüllermann paa ?hendes? Kongelige Majestæts Enkedronningens ?vegne?....etc
Source (p. 260, right): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64735116

Hej Niels

Thank you for finding that!  How did you find it?  I wish that justits- dom- and politiprotokoller were indexed, but usually they are not.  They can be very informative records and I have found several (too many?) relatives in them.

Citat
Since Henrich Schöllermann and wife was not to be found in Ålholm domænegods skifter maybe he could be in the skifter at Nysted Byfoged 1667-1919. These are not online though.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=nysted&d=1&e=2016&f=&g=&h=&ngid=786211&ngnid=786217&heid=2197436&henid=2197436&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=
That would make sense.  But maybe they did not have a probate because their children were adults when they died. 

And thanks for the information about civil servants, and punishments for theft etc.

It is strange that Daisy does not have Nysted borgerskaber.  Familysearch lists it under Rådstueprotokoller, which Daisy does have, and maybe borgerskaber are in there but left out of the description.  I agree that Hendrich Skøllermand should have had borgerskab status.

And thanks for all the links to Kongelige Resolutioner!  How nice to find a typed manuscript, easy on the eyes.  I found all the cases.  I wish I could prove I am related to this Hendrich Schøllermand.  I worry about all the Schøllermands in Holsten and that my connection might be there instead.

Citat fra: Grethe Leerbech [814] Dato 21 Mar 2019 - 16:56
I found Jørgen Skeel Dues mannor it is Sønderskov gods, and there is also a register over his farmer from 1719-1796, but I cannot find any Schöllermand there, so it must be either owned by Jacob Madsens heirs or the crown.

Thanks for finding this and looking in the register for Schøllermands.  Jørgen Skeel Due is in Nygaards Sedler, he has several cards and is also indexed under the place name Sønderskov.  Maybe you saw that.

I do not have easy access to a Family History Center.  It does make me think that maybe I have run out of easy online sources and need "offline" sources in order to make more progress.

In the last few days I have tried looking at Holsten sources on AO and familysearch, also records around Abild, Bække and Åle, without luck.

Thank you for all the help with this.  It has been very interesting, and not so easy!

Lisa P.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#66
Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 23 Mar 2019 - 15:52
Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 19 Mar 2019 - 18:30
Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokol (1653-1919):

24. Februar 1673.
Hendrich Schüllermann paa ?hendes? Kongelige Majestæts Enkedronningens ?vegne?....etc
Source (p. 260, right): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64735116

Hej Niels

Thank you for finding that!  How did you find it?  I wish that justits- dom- and politiprotokoller were indexed, but usually they are not.  They can be very informative records and I have found several (too many?) relatives in them.

Citat
Since Henrich Schöllermann and wife was not to be found in Ålholm domænegods skifter maybe he could be in the skifter at Nysted Byfoged 1667-1919. These are not online though.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=nysted&d=1&e=2016&f=&g=&h=&ngid=786211&ngnid=786217&heid=2197436&henid=2197436&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=
That would make sense.  But maybe they did not have a probate because their children were adults when they died.  

And thanks for the information about civil servants, and punishments for theft etc.

It is strange that Daisy does not have Nysted borgerskaber.  Familysearch lists it under Rådstueprotokoller, which Daisy does have, and maybe borgerskaber are in there but left out of the description.  I agree that Hendrich Skøllermand should have had borgerskab status.

And thanks for all the links to Kongelige Resolutioner!  How nice to find a typed manuscript, easy on the eyes.  I found all the cases.  I wish I could prove I am related to this Hendrich Schøllermand.  I worry about all the Schøllermands in Holsten and that my connection might be there instead.

Hi Lisa.

I took at long shot I though that the reason he stopped at being a ridefoged in 1673 could be a court case - anyways I checked that year because he was still in office as a Ridefoged and I might spot his name. I got lucky for one with troubles to read old handwriting like that. With patient reading you might find the first and last entry of appearences of him as ridefoged, and maybe later some cases where he is listed as tolder (after 1780) as there must have been some instances of smuggling, one would think?

Found also in my search a double mention of him as "Ridefogeden Hendrich Schüllerman" on page 270 - in the entry of Niels Jørgensen ?...? mid page and just before the entry of ?Jochum Walther?. Dated 5. Maj 1673.
See (p.270, left mid) : https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64735126

You are probably correct that the borgerskabslister hides within the Rådstueprotokoller - just not online neither at daisy or familysearch.
The advantage of these are they normally lists the place of birth (at least regionally).

The Rentekammer entries were interesting. Even though he had the office as tolder his salary was apparently low enough to making him get an extension on paying tax and later his application for money to repair the local harbour-pier was accepted.
As a tolder I guess it is his responsibility that merchants ships could come and go easily, or at least he made the application on requests from the local merchants. But while he had official status he didn't have much wealth (compared to merchants for instance).  

Kommerceråd (and merchant) Jacob Flindt (1686-1750) was apparently the BIG MAN in Nysted, a bit after Henrich Schöllermann was there. Perhaps he even achieved some kind of monopoly of trade in and off Nysted?  
In 1732 Jacob Flindt even bought the great-farm Nielstrup on Lolland.
His son Henrik inherited Nielstrup in 1750 and became a nobleman in 1768 with the name "de Flindt".
See: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_de_Flindt

Lisa Petersen

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 23 Mar 2019 - 18:41
I took at long shot I though that the reason he stopped at being a ridefoged in 1673 could be a court case - anyways I checked that year because he was still in office as a Ridefoged and I might spot his name. I got lucky for one with troubles to read old handwriting like that. With patient reading you might find the first and last entry of appearences of him as ridefoged,

That is a good technique.  I decided to try finding when he first appears as Ridefoged, using his first marriage date in Nov 1667 as an approximation.  I began in Jan 1666 and found him the first time on 18 May 1668.  Perhaps the best find is a court case I think about the death of Hendrich Organistis beginning 31 Aug 1668.

image 41, 1668 May 18, left page, bottom  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734897
image 44, 1668 May 25, left page, middle  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734900
image 46, 1668 May 25, left page, 11 lines down from top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734902
image 46, 1668 Jun 1, right page, near top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734902
image 47, 1668 Jun 8, right page, near bottom  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734903
image 48, 1668 Jun 8, left page, near top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734904
image 52, 1668 Jun 8, left page, near bottom   https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734908
image 53, 1668 Jun 22, left page, last paragraph at bottom   https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734909
and this could be the most interesting, something about the death of Hendrich Organistis
image 57, 1668 Aug 31, left page, 10 lines down from top  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734913
the case continues until about image 61, then starts again on image 64  https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315647,64734920
many more pages

I am starting to find him on almost every page!  But I have to stop now, will continue tomorrow.

Lisa P.

Niels Just Rasmussen

Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 24 Mar 2019 - 03:02
Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 23 Mar 2019 - 18:41
I took at long shot I though that the reason he stopped at being a ridefoged in 1673 could be a court case - anyways I checked that year because he was still in office as a Ridefoged and I might spot his name. I got lucky for one with troubles to read old handwriting like that. With patient reading you might find the first and last entry of appearences of him as ridefoged,

That is a good technique.  I decided to try finding when he first appears as Ridefoged, using his first marriage date in Nov 1667 as an approximation.  I began in Jan 1666 and found him the first time on 18 May 1668.  Perhaps the best find is a court case I think about the death of Hendrich Organistis beginning 31 Aug 1668.

Quite interesting that he first appears in the office af Ridefoged after his marriage.
It means that he definitely arrived in Nysted/Ålholm, BEFORE he got the appointment as Ridefoged.

I found a list of Tolders in Nysted!
See: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Nysted

According to that list Henrik Schellermann took over that job from Peder Johansen (Tolder 1661-1680) when he died.
So we know from the Rentekammer entry that he was promised that position, before he got it in January 1680.
He should have been reappointed in 1696 and probably held it until his death in 1707.

Niels Just Rasmussen

Embedsudnævnelser under Rentekammeret (1660-1848) .
The register-source for Hendrich Schöllermann (re?-)affirmation as Tolder in Nysted from 1st of January 1696.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098590

I have still not been able to find any registers of Ridefogeder in Nysted.

Lisa Petersen

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 24 Mar 2019 - 13:14
Quite interesting that he first appears in the office af Ridefoged after his marriage.

His first marriage (to Barbara Simonsdatter) was 22 Nov 1667, but he appears in the church records as Ridefoged beginning 21 Apr 1667 as sponsor for other children.

Citat
I found a list of Tolders in Nysted!
See: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Nysted

That is very nice!  I wonder what sources the author Michael Bach used to compile the long and detailed list of Toldere?

News:  one of Hendrich Schøllermand's associates in Nysted was Frederik Suhr.  They were sponsors for each other's children at baptism.  Frederik Suhr was born in Glückstadt, Slesvig-Holsten, near where those Schøllermanns in the 1803 census were.  https://andersaner.dk/getperson.php?personID=I1031&tree=Tree1   I as I do more research on HS, I will be looking for his connection to Frederik Suhr, in case HS also came from the same town or area.

I am still looking through the justitsprotokoller for more interesting court cases.

Thank you Niels for your help with this, finding the list of Toldere and everything else!

Lisa P.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#71
Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781
That is very nice!  I wonder what sources the author Michael Bach used to compile the long and detailed list of Toldere?

News:  one of Hendrich Schøllermand's associates in Nysted was Frederik Suhr.  They were sponsors for each other's children at baptism.  Frederik Suhr was born in Glückstadt, Slesvig-Holsten, near where those Schøllermanns in the 1803 census were.  https://andersaner.dk/getperson.php?personID=I1031&tree=Tree1   I as I do more research on HS, I will be looking for his connection to Frederik Suhr, in case HS also came from the same town or area.

I am still looking through the justitsprotokoller for more interesting court cases.

Thank you Niels for your help with this, finding the list of Toldere and everything else!

Lisa P.

Looks like Michael Bach at least used the Rentekammer registers as I found, but seemed to have access to other sources? Maybe the justitsprotokol?

Quite interesting wth "Amtsforvalter" Frederik Suhr.
According to the page you found he was a soldier from 1659-1667.
So one could speculate that maybe Henrich Schöllermann was in the army together with Frederik Suhr?

Suhr family:
Bernt Suhr (~ 1615 - 1685). Born ?  and joined the service of Duke (later King) Frederik in Bremen as "livkarl" in 1635.
He had two sons:
Casper Suhr (1642 - 1701): Priest in Saksild and Nølev. (east Jutland).
Frederik Suhr (1644 - 1706). Amts-skriver Ålholm 1670 and Amtsforvalter Lolland 1683.

See family tree here: http://denstoredanske.dk/Dansk_Biografisk_Leksikon/Samfund,_jura_og_politik/Sl%C3%A6gter/Suhr
&
Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhr_family

According to the wiki page Bernt Suhr probably had a brother Claus he was "tax officer" (= tolder) in Nakskov from 1675!
Se also Michael Bach: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Nakskov

Wiki page has a third son of Bernt Suhr: Johan Christopher Suhr [tolder in Århus]. 1645 - 1709.  
See: http://toldhistorie.blogspot.com/search/label/Aarhus

This looks like a "network"!

Suhr's in Hirsch's register of Danish and Norwegian officers.
a) Bent Suhr. Mentioned 1661
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684727
b) Frederik Suhr. Mentioned as "enspænder" 1653-1663.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684729
c) Jacob Suer. Mentioned in 1689.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684731
d) Johan Suhr. Mentioned 1645 as Musketer in Rantzau's company.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684733
e) Michael Suhr. Mentioned 1683-1698.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198892,37684736

Lisa Petersen

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 01 Apr 2019 - 17:45
Quite interesting wth "Amtsforvalter" Frederik Suhr.
According to the page you found he was a soldier from 1659-1667.
So one could speculate that maybe Henrich Schöllermann was in the army together with Frederik Suhr?

That was my thought, also.  But, now I don't know. 
Thank you for all the information on the 'network' of Suhrs!  Wow, a Wiki page on the Suhr family!  If Friderich Suhr's father followed Duke Frederik, later King Frederik III, around, then maybe the family was not in Glückstadt very long.  Or maybe the wife stayed in Glückstadt with the children and Bernt Suhr came home occasionally. 

Some of your Suhr family sources mention places on Jutland, so I searched Nygaards Sedler.  I thought Nygaards Sedler was only about Jutland people, but here are 2 cards on Frederik Suhr on Lolland, maybe not very helpful:
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367346&sort=e
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367347&sort=e

In the Embedsudnævnelser under Rentekammeret, I found Henrich Schøllermand 4 times
1660-1670, Henrich Schülerman, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393
   1663 April 3, Dronningens Lakaj
   1667 Januar 26, befordret  (jf. Afregnb 1665-73 fol. 26)
1670-1699, Henrik Schüler, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098593
   1680 Januar 8, Tolder i Nÿsted (Rk. origin. Resol. Seddel Registr.)
1670-1699, Heinrich Schullmann, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098591
   1680 Januar 12, Tolder i Nysted (med Eed) (jfr. Bb. 19a fol. 3)
1670-1699, Henrich Schollerman, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098590
   1696 Januar 1, Tolder i Nysted  (jfr. Bb. 23a fol. 277) (jfr. Kopi med Eden)
he is not listed after 1699

Is there a source online about the first one, Dronningens Lakaj in 1663?  It would be nice to know where he was in 1663.

Also, I finished looking for Hendrich Schøllermann in the Nysted Byfoged Justitsprotokoller, 1666-1709.  I found many cases, but here is one I think is the most interesting:

8 Dec 1690, Christoffer Hansen Loøsholdt who married daughter Sophia Amalia Henriksen 1 month before this.  Left page below date, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=20651493#315648,64735347
What does it say about the mother and grandmother?  And why is this case in the tingbog?

Thanks for any help with Dronningens Lakaj and the 1690 tingbog case.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#73
Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781] Dato 06 Apr 2019 - 01:32
Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen [56358] Dato 01 Apr 2019 - 17:45
Quite interesting wth "Amtsforvalter" Frederik Suhr.
According to the page you found he was a soldier from 1659-1667.
So one could speculate that maybe Henrich Schöllermann was in the army together with Frederik Suhr?

That was my thought, also.  But, now I don't know.  
Thank you for all the information on the 'network' of Suhrs!  Wow, a Wiki page on the Suhr family!  If Friderich Suhr's father followed Duke Frederik, later King Frederik III, around, then maybe the family was not in Glückstadt very long.  Or maybe the wife stayed in Glückstadt with the children and Bernt Suhr came home occasionally.  

Some of your Suhr family sources mention places on Jutland, so I searched Nygaards Sedler.  I thought Nygaards Sedler was only about Jutland people, but here are 2 cards on Frederik Suhr on Lolland, maybe not very helpful:
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367346&sort=e
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=367347&sort=e

Hi Lisa.

The second Nygaard card on Frederik Suhr has a lot of informationen:
The following must be from the "Embedsansøgning 28/8 1703" where he is talking about himself!
"Efter stormen på København 1659 [Swedish attack on Copenhagen] kom jeg udenlands, men da, da blokaden og krigen varede så længe, ingen subsistensmidler få fra mine forældre og måtte derfor begive mig under ?militzen?, den kejserlige armé i Ungarn, i 18 måneder og efter freden med tyrken blev sluttet kom ?jeg? til den daværende danske envoié ved kejserhoffet i Wien, hr. v. Lilliencron, siden til fhv. rigens marskalk v. Kötbitz, Reist- og tiente welberedte gode herrer i 14 år, og har nu på 33. tjent som amtsforv. på Lolland."

So Frederik Suhr seems to have moved around a lot on his own in Austria+Hungary?




Niels Just Rasmussen

#74
Citat fra: Lisa Petersen [51781
In the Embedsudnævnelser under Rentekammeret, I found Henrich Schøllermand 4 times
1660-1670, Henrich Schülerman, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098393
  1663 April 3, Dronningens Lakaj
 
Is there a source online about the first one, Dronningens Lakaj in 1663?  It would be nice to know where he was in 1663.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.


I can only say this is very interesting.
The queen Sophie Amalie of Brunswick-Lüneburg was a real power player, who had her favourites and those she destroyed.

"After the introduction of absolutism, the queen increasingly attracted attention for her protection of favorites and her persecution of those she disliked. It was said that "The queen is not always good toward those, who devote themselves to the king, without being dependent upon others"; that she wished to be "sought and honored", and by handing out favors she gathered followers to a queen's party who owed their loyalty to her personally, and who eventually also gained influence over her.[1] One of her protegees was Jakob Petersen, officially only a chamber servant of the king, who was given much favor by the queen and described as her "most confidant tool" until he was suddenly exiled by the king in 1664 for the unspecific accusation of being involved in "many intrigues"; after the king's death, Sophie Amalie had all accusations against him dropped.[1] Her most favored lady-in-waiting was Abel Cathrine. Of the persecutions, the most known victims are Kai Lykke and Leonora Christine. In 1662, the nobleman Kai Lykke was forced to flee and had his property in Denmark confiscated after he was discovered to have written in a private letter ti his mistress that the queen had sex with her lackeys; his was not allowed back to Denmark until after Sophie Amalie's death. [2] In 1663, she famously had Leonora Christina Ulfeldt imprisoned in the Blåtårn, and refused to release her as long as she herself was still alive."

So being "Dronningens Lakaj" in 1663 means that Henrich Schöllermann must be one of the Queens men in Copenhagen in 1663, and then by 1667 is send to Ålholm as Ridefoged.
As Lakaj he was the queen's personal servant.

"After the introduction of the Kongeloven in 1665, the queen's position was undermined by Christoffer Gabel, who replaced her as the kings chief adviser. She was notably no included as regent in the event of her son succeeding to the throne while still a minor. The reason for why her spouse no longer relied so much upon her advise in the latter part of his reign, was likely the instability in foreign policy caused by her indecisiveness as to weather her goals to reconquer the Southern Provinces from Sweden would be best benefited with an alliance with France or the German-Roman Empire."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Amalie_of_Brunswick-L%C3%BCneburg

So the reason could be that from 1665 she lost power in Copenhagen and now sends her trusted men to take care of her livgeding-holdings. From this point she also became an economic power player.

"I livgedingperioden ophold hun sig kun i kortere perioder i Nykøbing, i det længste en 2-årig periode. Blandt andet foretog hun rejser til sine slægtninge i udlandet. Det blev således ved sine skriftlige ordrer og bestemmelser, at hun påvirkede driften af livgedinget."
Source: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Amalie_af_Braunschweig-L%C3%BCneburg

So she is not so much on Lolland-Falster in person, but communicates to them by letters.
Alternatively Henrich Schöllermann could have been the Queens Servant at Nykøbing Falster Castle in the short periods she was there.


Embedsansøgninger from Rentekammeret (1660-1848) are not yet online:
Daisy sources: https://www.sa.dk/daisy/arkivserie_detaljer?a=&b=&c=rentekammeret&d=1650&e=1670&f=&g=&h=&ngid=6754&ngnid=7716&heid=2143066&henid=2143066&epid=&faid=&meid=&m2rid=&side=&sort=&dir=&gsc=&int=&ep=&es=&ed=

Niels Just Rasmussen

#75

Niels Just Rasmussen

#76
If Henrich Schöllermann was from Nykøbing Falster and got a job there at the Castle as Lakaj in 1663, then sadly Nykøbing Falster only have preserved church books from 1705 and the register of Borgerskabsprotokol is first from 1675.

So going for him being in Copenhagen, when he got appointed by the Queen in 1663, is the bet that gets us most sources to search through.

He is NOT in the list of those with Borgerskab in København in 1659.
Source: https://user-9y8ca5x.cld.bz/RHB-boger/KjobenhavnsBorgere-1659/1
NB: Register is at the end of the transcription.

The is a Berent (Bertel) Suhr as Kongelig Furer. Register page 197. [on page 29 + 96].
Page 29: Bertel Suer. Companistræde. Kong. Maiest. Furerer.
Page 96: Snarens Quarter. Companistrede 1. Berent Suer. Hoffererer.

Is this "Bernt Suhr" (~ 1615 - 1685) the father of Frederik Suhr?

Lisa Petersen

Hej Niels, and Grethe

This thread has been very interesting, taking me to times and places I don't normally research.  Thank you both for all your help.  After all the information we've found on Hendrich Schøllermand and family in Nysted, I still don't have enough to connect them to my ancestors from Bække or Åle.  Some day more records will come online that will help.  But for now, I think I will go back to the people I am sure about and work more on them.

Your help is very much appreciated.

Mange venlige hilsener.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Jan Suhr

My name is Jan Suhr and I am a direct descendant of Bernt Suhr born 1615 and he was "Livkarl" to prince Frederick from about 1635 in Bremen.

I just found this interesting thread on this forum. In my register I have over 3000 (and counting) descendants to Bernt Suhr.

I have done Y-DNA tests on myself and on three others in our family, we all are connected to Bernts grandchild Bernt Frederich Suhr born 1677 and we share the same Y-DNA.

From the DNA-tests of others with the name Suhr we have found that there was one different branch of Suhr's in Denmark in the 1600's on Lolland and one different in northern Germany. In 1610 there were families with the name Suhr living in at least five different places on Lolland.

Our DNA also show a match with one other man who don't have the name Suhr and the match is probably from 1450-1500, he has his roots in Lolland too. So there was presence in Denmark of my ancestors already back then.

About Johan Suhr who was "Tolder in Aarhus" I don't think he was a child to Bernt Suhr. There are records of a Suhr family in Aarhus already in the 1200's so I assume that he is a relative to that person.
There is also a lot of Suhr's on the German side opposite to Lolland around Kiel, Lübeck, Rostock area.

One very interesting thing with my DNA-test was that it showed other matches further back in time, over 1000 years, with origin in the area of north east France — Luxembourg — Trier in Germany. And in northern Luxembourg we have a river called Sûre, Sauer, Saur or Sour depending on dialect and time. From old records we know that Bernt Suhr spelled his name different, Saur was used when he came back to Denmark from Bremen. So with the name of the river and the origins that the DNA shows his early ancestors would have come from that area in Luxembourg.

The other part that is more interesting is his profession, Livkarl or Hoffeurer is something special. It is the same as Chancellor or Butler and they worked very close to Earls, Dukes and Royals. It was a guild that went from father to son in many many generations. The Y-DNA-matches we have show the same kind of background on the others and it seems like we have a guild of civil servants going back to early medieval Europe. So that Bernt Suhr ended up as the Livkarl to prince Frederick at only 20 years of age in Bremen wasn't a coincident.

To get a position like that you must come from a well known family with good references, have good education and training in many subjects to be able to handle the responsibility that came with the job. I therefore believe that the family Suhr was close to the Danish court and well known.

Bernt Suhrs descendants continued to work close to the danish court and are in fact still doing so, we have a few descendants that have been and is at the court in the present days!
Bernts oldest son, Casper had a great grand child, Ingrid Maria Müller, who was Hof frue to the Danish princess Sofia Magdalena who became queen of Sweden with the marriage to King Gustav III of Sweden. Ingrid came to Sweden with the queen and stayed until her death in 1793.

What I have been trying to find is some records of the Suhr presence in København before 1620 to see if you could find any proof that they were at the court. My theory is that my branch of the Suhr's came to Denmark with the Oldenburgs in 1448 when Kristian of Oldenburg became king of Denmark. That the Suhr's was servants to the Oldenburgs. Not possible to proof but it could very well be like that.

For more information you can visit my website. https://www.jansuhr.se it is in Swedish but Google translate can be used.
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se

Jan Suhr

Citat fra: Niels Just Rasmussen Dato 06 Apr 2019 - 16:29
The is a Berent (Bertel) Suhr as Kongelig Furer. Register page 197. [on page 29 + 96].
Page 29: Bertel Suer. Companistræde. Kong. Maiest. Furerer.
Page 96: Snarens Quarter. Companistrede 1. Berent Suer. Hoffererer.

Is this "Bernt Suhr" (~ 1615 - 1685) the father of Frederik Suhr?

Yes it is Bernt Suhr the father of Frederik Suhr
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se

Lisa Petersen

Hej Jan

Once I tried to follow Frederik Suhr & relatives in case my Henrich Schøllermand was connected in some way.  I found these:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098399
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=18484342#236931,45098604

If you are interested to see what other card indexes are online, try this:

https://arkivalielister.dis-danmark.dk/ao_alt_vis_navne.php?stil=2&navn=kartotek&sort=s

I don't know about court records from Kbh. in the 1600s, sorry.

I have not yet found the birth place of my Henrich Schøllermand.  He may have come from an area northwest of Hamburg because there are others with the surname there. 

Venlige hilsener
Lisa Petersen
ved Washington, D.C.

Jan Suhr

Hi Lisa,

In the family book from the Suhrske Stiftelse they have som articles of the oldest known ancestors like Bernt and Frederick Suhr. Those articles are very old and from compiled research one member of the Suhr family did in the early 20th century. Those articles are also the base of what can be found on Wikipedia and other source of information. Today we know more and some of that old information is questionable today.

I therefore question that the Tolder in Aarhus is in my branch and also that Bernt Suhr had a brother called Claus. He was probably from an other branch. It would be nice if we could get more Y-DNA samples from other Suhr-families.

In the family book and the story about Frederick there is a mention of a Johann Christopher von Kørbitz who was a Rigsmarshal to which Frederick was in service after the time as a soldier in 1670. von Kørbitz was also helpful in the contact with the former queen Sophie Amalie to whom Frederick came to serve.

Maybe this von Kørbitz can be helpful for you to find any traces of Henrich Schøllermand.

Best regards

Jan
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se


Niels Just Rasmussen

#83
Citat fra: Jan Suhr Dato 17 Mar 2020 - 08:40

What I have been trying to find is some records of the Suhr presence in København before 1620 to see if you could find any proof that they were at the court. My theory is that my branch of the Suhr's came to Denmark with the Oldenburgs in 1448 when Kristian of Oldenburg became king of Denmark. That the Suhr's was servants to the Oldenburgs. Not possible to proof but it could very well be like that.

For more information you can visit my website. https://www.jansuhr.se it is in Swedish but Google translate can be used.

Hi Jan [will just keep it in english].

It is possible the Suhr-family could have arrived in Denmark before Christoffer of Bavaria.
The Danish noble family Oxe were descended from Bavaria/Bayern [Ochs von Gunzendorf], so it would be natural to assume they came with Christoffer of Bayern to Denmark.
But Johan Oxe can be traced already in Denmark in 1408. So he could have arrived with or invited later by Erik of Pommern. So it is possible that knights or squires also from Luxembourg arrived already in Denmark around ~ 1400, since we can prove that one from Bayern did.

What is interesting is that Johan Oxe's wife was Ælseff/Else of Ketelskov; Ketelskov is also on Lolland.

Could it be that a group of german knights received (or married into) holdings on Lolland?

Johan Oxe mentioned in "Orbituarium Monestarii beati Petri Nestvediensis":
"Her Johan Oxæ, Domina Ælseff uxor ejus".
Source (page 328): https://books.google.dk/books?id=QtbtCsVTmccC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Ochs von Gunzendorf: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochs_von_Gunzendorf

The most prominent Oxe is Danish history was Peder Oxe af Nielstrup (1520-1575) [Nielstrup hovedgård is also on Lolland].

Jan Suhr

Hello Niels,

That is an interesting theory and it might be more believable than the Oldenburg.

What we know from our Y-DNA is that we have either civil servants like the Livkarl job that Bernt Suhr had to prince Frederik in Bremen. But there are others from our Y-DNA-group that where knights , we have some who were in crusades and we have some who took part in the battle of Hastings. A couple of branches ended up on the British Isles over early medieval times.

One thing that is contradictive with my Oldenburg theory is the match we have from around 1450-1500 and with Lolland ancestry. So that proves that they were there early on.

Our branch is close in time to the last branch that went to England, the German and Belgian line splits a few hundred years earlier.

See the attached tree on how we have spread our from the Luxembourg area.
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se

Jan Suhr

The Duchy of Bar is central in our DNA-group, we have several traces back to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Bar
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se

Jan Suhr

This might just be a convenient coincident but the coat of arms for Ketelskov has an owl on a blue background. The coat of arms that Suhr has is also an owl sitting on a plow on a blue background.

The history about the Suhr's coat of arms is that later on when Frederick was king (Frederick III) they were out on a hunt. They saw an owl sitting on a plow. The king said to Bernt Suhr that if he could shoot the owl on the plow he would get that as an coat of arms. He did shoot the owl.

Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se

Jan Suhr

Suhr coat of arms, it is also displayed on Ugerløse Kirke on Sjælland
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se

Niels Just Rasmussen

#88
Steen Thomsen informed me that Ælsif Ketelskov could have had some connection with the Budde-family from Rügen. They also had an owl in their coat-of-arms.

From Steen Thomsen's web-page:
"Budde i det gamle fyrstendømme Rügen (som blev en del af Pommern), førte en ugle i skjoldet, og ses fra 1258 frem til 1449/54 og måske længere. De havde landsbyen/godset Buddenhagen. De to slægter er tidligere blevet blandet sammen."

Der var også Budde'r på Lolland, men det lidt vi ved er at en våben med Hjortetak.
"Den lille slægt Budde [af Lolland] er vel en gren af den fra Rügen, men det er usikkert. En af dem førte en gren eller hjortetak mellem 3 stjerner, måske er det hustruens våben, hun var en Fiend med en pil mellem 3 stjerner."
Kilde: http://www.danbbs.dk/~stst/slaegt_adel/budde.htm

So it makes sense that Erik of Pommern invited families from that area. 

PS: Very interesting with the genealogical informations you presented.

Jan Suhr

A bit of an update and to keep this thread alive :-)

I have found some information about German knights coming to Denmark in the 1200-1300 era. The different Danish kings bought their services in different ways over the years. There was a lot of contact and business with the neighboring parts of northern Germany like Mecklenburg and Holstein.

In some of the old Danish castles, like Aalholm on southeastern Lolland, there were presence of German knights early on as the Kings vassals.

From my Y-DNA I know that my closest DNA-cousins were knights from Germany/Flandern that ended up on the British Isles. Our split happened around 1000 years ago ±100, we know that from surnames and coat of arms.

We also know from DNA that my branch was present on Lolland at least 5-600 years ago even a bit earlier maybe. This early DNA-Match I have (together with 2 others, we are 8th cousins) are a bit before us.

We three Suhrs have a common ancestor born in 1677. This ancestor was Bernt Frederich Suhr born in 1677-08-15 at Aalholm castle where his father Friedrich Suhr was the "Amtsforvalter" or "Lensmænd" over Lolland under the service of widowed queen Sophie Amalie. The man we have as a Y-DNA match with don't have the name Suhr but have his roots in the area around Nysted (Closest town to Aalholm) and in Nykøbing/Falster.

My theory now is that this might be the source of my Suhr families presence i Denmark, we also know that there are other families who bear the Suhr name but in the few cases we have DNA from it shows that they are in no way related to my branch. One German knight stayed there and married, if so I am his descendant.

Nothing can be proved since there are no records going back that far but with DNA we can get some indications. It would be great if we could get more DNA-samples from men with the name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aalholm

https://www.medievalists.net/2009/07/on-german-knights-in-denmark-during-the-reign-of-valdemar-atterdag-1340-1375/

https://core.ac.uk/reader/52101334
Visit my homepage: https://www.jansuhr.se