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Forfatter Emne: Markgreves regiment, kaptajn Wilsteds kompagni i Rensburg, 1741  (Læst 1591 gange)
Lisa Petersen [51781]
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« Dato: 11 Feb 2019 - 22:43 »

Hej

One of my ancestors was a soldier in Capt. Wilsted's company in Rensburg in the Marquis' regiment in 1741.  Is any information online about the soldiers in the company?  I want to find his birth date and place, but even his age in 1741 would be helpful.

Source, left page at top: 
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161194,27080797

På forhånd tak.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.
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Niels Just Rasmussen [56358]
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« Svar #1 Dato: 28 Feb 2019 - 19:17 »

Hej

One of my ancestors was a soldier in Capt. Wilsted's company in Rensburg in the Marquis' regiment in 1741.  Is any information online about the soldiers in the company?  I want to find his birth date and place, but even his age in 1741 would be helpful.

Source, left page at top:  
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161194,27080797

På forhånd tak.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

So it seems that Karen Hansdatter of Bølling gets a bastard child named Søren.
As the father she names Ole Krabbe from the ?.........? Regiment, Captain Wilsted's Company.
Sadly I can't really get what the Regiment name should be here?
If it says "markgrevens regiment", then it's just whoever was chief for that regiment at that moment.

Fynske Geworbne Regiment (later 4. Bataljon): Oberst markgreve Frederik Christian af Brandenburg-Kulmbach 1734-1744.
Jyske Geworbne Regiment (later 12. Bataljon): Generalfeltmarskal markgreve Friedrich Ernst af Brandenburg-Culmbach 1728-1762.
Of those two the "Jyske Geworbne Regiment" definitely had Rendsborg as a Garrison town in 1741.

12th Bataljon actually has stambog all the back to 1730!

So the child's name should be Søren Olesen.

NB: Krabbe is a name of a noble family and in Rendsburg we find a Captain Ole Henriksen Krabbe of the Nørrejyske Nationale Infanteri Regiment. He is born in Fredrikstad in Norway in 1713 and dies in Rendsborg 27th of March 1781.
It could be that he is the father here in 1741, before he was appointed Captain and before he was married in 1751.
See: http://skeel.info/getperson.php?personID=I7403&tree=ks
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« Svar #2 Dato: 28 Feb 2019 - 19:59 »

12. Bataljon Stambog = Jyske Geworbne Regiment.

Capitaine von Wilsters Compagnie. [not Wilsted].
1737: Ohle Krabbe. 16 years old. Born: Jütland is enrolled.

So it is NOT the Norwegian-1713-born Ole Henriksen Krabbe, but an Ole Krabbe born ~ 1721 in Jutland.  
Source [image 156 of 920, page 480 in original]: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79PX-V?i=155&cat=416356
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« Svar #3 Dato: 28 Feb 2019 - 21:05 »

Hej Niels

The birth record says "Ole Krabbe, af Marg-Grafvens Regimente Capitain Wilsteds Compagnie i Rensburg."  

Thank you for the regiment information and the link to the stambog.  That is very helpful!  I did not have a birth year for my Ole Krabbe, except to guess from the birth of his first child in 1741.

It is interesting that you mention Ole Henriksen Krabbe, because I just discovered him last night on a different web site https://gw.geneanet.org/fholbek?lang=en&pz=finn+josef+skeel&nz=holbek&ocz=0&p=ole&n=krabbe+af+damsgaard&oc=2.  I was looking for more information about him in case he was 'my' Ole Krabbe.  There are some similarities, and differences.

I also found this last night
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17142540#185104,31312438
but I could not find the incoming letters on AO.  They are probably from Ole Henriksen Krabbe.

I will look more at the stambog, and then try to find his birth.  Now that I know the year, I can look through churchbooks of southern Jylland until I find him.

Thank you for the replies!

Lisa Petersen
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« Svar #4 Dato: 28 Feb 2019 - 21:19 »

Ole Krabbe & Karen Hansdatter actually ends up getting engaged [Trolovet] in Egtved Sogn 30th of January 1744.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161195,27080943

Married [Copuleret] the 3rd of June 1744 in Egtved Sogn.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17122284#161195,27080944

He is listed both places as "Stollermann", so apparently no longer in the army in 1744?

As he was enlisted for 10 years in 1737 [Capituleret] he must have been discharged beforehand!
Yet I can't find him discharged in the Wilster-company lists, so he must have changed company within the Regiment [which is not that uncommon].  

Have you checked whether Ole Krappe & Karen Hansdatter dies in Egtved Sogn?

Because Ole Henriksen Krappe is Captain in- and dies in Rendsborg, so finding Ole Krabbe buried in Egtved rules Ole Henriksen Krabbe out 100%

PS: These letters you found must definitely be from Oluf (Ole) Henriksen Krabbe.
Ole is the "shortform" of Olof/Oluf.
As one official letter is from 1738 to the "over-war-secretary", then "your" Ole Krappe must very likely be another person as he only just enrolled in the army and being 16-17 years old....
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« Svar #5 Dato: 28 Feb 2019 - 21:40 »

Names of the Regiment through time:
Nye Sydjydske Regiment   1675   - 1679      
Jyske Wedelske Regiment til Fods   1679   - 1684      
Jyske Wedelske Infanteriregiment   1679   - 1684      
Jyske nationale Regiment   1684   - 1702      
Jyske Nationale Regiment under Feltmarskallen Baron Wedell 1684 - 1693      
Jyske Wedellske Nationale Regiment   1693   - 1702      
Jyske Infanteriregiment   1702   - 1715      
Jyske Regiment   1702   - 1715      
Jyske geworbne Regiment   1715   - 1780      
Jyske Regiment til Fods   1780   - 1781      
Jyske Infanteriregiment   1781   - 1790      
Fyenske Infanteriregiment   1790 - 1842      
12. Linie Infanteribataillon   1842 - 1848      
12. Lette Infanteribataillon   1848   - 1855      
12. Linie Infanteribataillon   1855 - 1860      
12. Infanteribataillon   1860 - 1863      
12. Infanteriregiment   1863 - 1865      
12. Infanteribataillon   1865 - 1867      
12. Bataillon   1867   - 1951      
ophævet [Discontinued]   1951
Source: https://www.wadschier.dk/haeren-garnisoner-regimentschefer/haer/jyske-regiment-til-fods/432
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« Svar #6 Dato: 28 Feb 2019 - 22:33 »

I have not been able to find the death of my Ole Krabbe.  I think he died between March 1781 and December 1784 but I don't know where.  Karen Hansdatter died in Veerst sogn, Ribe amt, in 1768.

You are probably right about the 1738 letter to the oversecretary not being from my Ole Krabbe, who was only 17 at that time.

The word stollermann is the last name Schøllermann or Skøllermand.  I have another thread about that here https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,146478.0.html.  I am trying to find more information about Henrik & his 3 sons in case my Ole Krabbe is related.

It has been difficult, researching in this time period before censuses and lægdsruller.

Thanks for your help.  The stambog is a great find.

Lisa Petersen
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« Svar #7 Dato: 01 Mar 2019 - 00:09 »

I have not been able to find the death of my Ole Krabbe.  I think he died between March 1781 and December 1784 but I don't know where.  Karen Hansdatter died in Veerst sogn, Ribe amt, in 1768.

You are probably right about the 1738 letter to the oversecretary not being from my Ole Krabbe, who was only 17 at that time.

The word stollermann is the last name Schøllermann or Skøllermand.  I have another thread about that here https://www.slaegtogdata.dk/forum/index.php/topic,146478.0.html.  I am trying to find more information about Henrik & his 3 sons in case my Ole Krabbe is related.

It has been difficult, researching in this time period before censuses and lægdsruller.

Thanks for your help.  The stambog is a great find.

Lisa Petersen
near Washington, D.C.

Offcourse  Wink
Didn't even think about that when I replied to your other thread.
I wonder in that case if it is NOT A NAME, but his occupation whatever that might be [I'm not that strong in Low German]!
In the stambog he is only "Ohle Krabbe", so Krabbe is his surname of use.

Some guesses based on the Plautdietsch Lexicon (Low German Dictionary):

Schol   [ʃoːl] n.f. Pl: Scholen. scale.

1 • Jereetschoft toom wäajen - scale.

2 • sea schoape Weedoag en Henj ooda Feet wan dee sikj rieren von een Jewauss em Jelenkj - gout; spavin.
Category: 1.6.2.2. Parts of a reptile, 1.6.2.3. Parts of a fish, 2.1.4. Skin, 4.2.3. Music, 7.2.2.4. Move up, 7.2.4.8. Map, 8.2.8. Measure.

or

Stol   [ʃtoːl] n.n. Pl: -. eene Sort Iesa - steel.
Category: 1.2.2.3. Metal, 6.6.2.3. Working with metal.

So "Scales-man" or "Steal-working man"??
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« Svar #8 Dato: 01 Mar 2019 - 17:47 »

I have not been able to find the death of my Ole Krabbe.  I think he died between March 1781 and December 1784 but I don't know where.  Karen Hansdatter died in Veerst sogn, Ribe amt, in 1768.

That was pretty hard to find even when you knew the year!

Verst Sogn:
So mid left page, narrow left column. 
24. Jun [1768] jordedes Ole Skoller/Skøller-mands hustru Karen Hans[datter].
Source (p.30): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17121576#159955,26891528

It is quite interesting as Henrik Schöllermann's son Julius Henrik also died in Verst Sogn.

Ole Skollermand is not indicated as being "foreign" to the Parish priest, so while it is possible that the wife moved to Verst after her husband died [this priest doesn't ooze confidence with the kind of "page-artistry" he shows] then it does at first glance indicate that they both lived in that Parish when she died.
Normally the priests also write "afd" [afdød] if the husband was deceased at the time of the wife's death and it isn't the case here.   
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« Svar #9 Dato: 01 Mar 2019 - 21:06 »

Ole lived after his wifes dead.
he is godfather in 1771 for erik bertelsens daughter i Verst sogn

.

Verst sogn – døbte 1718 til 1814


1771 d. 7 jul. døbtes Erik Bertelsens søn Christen. Førtes til dåben af præstens pige Stine.
Faddere: præstens søn Peder Rubæk, Ole Skøllermand og Christen Hinnum, Anna Morten
Juhls hustru, madame Rhode,


The name Krabbe could be a nickname for the way he walked. He could have had "english decease" and therefore his leg would have been bend. mmon that the soldiers got nicknames, sometimes after the place they are born or have lived. But it s difficult to analyse why they are called this and that.

mvh
Grethe
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« Svar #10 Dato: 02 Mar 2019 - 21:23 »

Ole lived after his wifes dead.
he is godfather in 1771 for erik bertelsens daughter i Verst sogn

Verst sogn – døbte 1718 til 1814

1771 d. 7 jul. døbtes Erik Bertelsens søn Christen. Førtes til dåben af præstens pige Stine.
Faddere: præstens søn Peder Rubæk, Ole Skøllermand og Christen Hinnum, Anna Morten
Juhls hustru, madame Rhode,


The name Krabbe could be a nickname for the way he walked. He could have had "english decease" and therefore his leg would have been bend. mmon that the soldiers got nicknames, sometimes after the place they are born or have lived. But it s difficult to analyse why they are called this and that.

mvh
Grethe

The nickname Krabbe would certainly be relevant for one who had Rickets (Engelsk Syge), but why on earth would he then be accepted as a professional soldier if he was disabled? People with that disease are also quite small and not exactly build for army life with all the problems associated with their disease.
They wanted tall soldiers for the professional army - how the looked was important for the Kings prestige. People with a nickname "Krabbe" would likely not look like a person they even wanted to hire as a geworben soldier?

I have an Saxon ancestors enrolled in as Geworben soldier in 1771 and he is 68,25 danish tommer (177,5 cm) which he quite higher than the male average of the time.

Also when Ole Krabbe is inscribed in the stambog he is not around people he knows and he is asked his name. Apparently most (all?) other persons in the stambog is recorded by their names, not nicknames.
Also he can't yet have gotten a "soldier-name" as he just entering as 16 years old.
Probably ran away from home shortly after his confirmation -  what you have found certainly suggests that this (brother?) was really struggling.....

So as the priest in 1741 had inscribed him as "Ole Krabbe Stollermann" I think Krabbe was his real name.
Nicknames (as occupation names) normally comes last.  

You can still be correct, that it is a nickname - I would just find it a bit unusual that it got accepted in the stambog as people had to travel, they needed with a pas from their parish-priest with their real name inscribed.  

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« Svar #11 Dato: 02 Mar 2019 - 22:10 »

It looks like we have a Hans Christopher Schölermann & Peter Christian Sköllermann also in von Wilsters Regiment.

Abgegangen in 1754:  
nr 1) gra [granadier] Hans Christ. ?Schölermann?
25 years old.
Born Jütland.
After 9 years of service.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79P3-W?i=169&cat=416356
&
Here he is enrolled in 1744.
Hans Christopher Scköllermann.
15 years old.
Born: aus Aal in Jütland.  [So Aal/Ål Sogn, Vester Horne Herred, Ribe Amt]
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79P3-5?i=160&cat=416356

Abgegangen in 1757:
nr 15) ?...? Peter Christian Sköllermann.
22 years old.
Born Jütland.
After 6 years and 1 month service.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79P3-Y?i=174&cat=416356
&
Here he is enrolled in 1751.
nr 15: Peter Chr. Schøllerman.
Born: Jütland.
Age 16 years.
Lutheran.
Source: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79PX-P?i=167&cat=416356

Found "your man":
Abgegangen in 1756.
nr 8 : gra [granadier] Ohle Krabbe Schölermann.
35 years old.
Born: Jütland.
After 18,5 years of service.
Source [173 of 920, nr 510 in original]
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C332-79PX-6?i=172&cat=416356
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« Svar #12 Dato: 03 Mar 2019 - 00:16 »

Hej Niels

Thank you for finding more Schøllermanns in the stambøger!  I will try to follow them, in case my Ole Krabbe was born or died in the same place.  I am not on my computer much today, though.

Grethe found some mentions of Schøllermands in the Koldinghus Tingbøger.  Henrik and the son Peder had some legal troubles in the 1730s.  If Ole Krabbe is an older son of Henrik's, perhaps the legal troubles were an embarrassment, Ole left home, took a new name, and joined the army.  It is all speculation at this point.

I will follow all the leads and hopefully learn more and find more about the Schøllermanns and Ole Krabbe.

Thank you for the help!

Lisa Petersen
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« Svar #13 Dato: 03 Mar 2019 - 13:33 »

hey Lisa

I am sure that Ole remarried with Anna Hansdatter and called himself Oluf Krabbe. They got children in Veerst i, 1774,1775,1777, 1779 and 1781 Look yourself.
Krabbe is e seldom name in Denmark. It is a protected name for an old noble family called Krabbe, Their mannor is Krabbeshoilm, which is situatied near Aarhus. Forst en the 19century we se family names with Krabbe, and i think that some of them comes from Ole Krabbe Skøllermand.
It could be that Henrik also was in the horse army and if Ole left him, - but he was around 17 when he joined the army- because of trouble or the father didnt want him as a soldier, he must have served in a farm someplace. But of course Krabbe could be that he is born in a parish for Krabbesholm.
I believe as you that Ole is not marked by rickets, as you say it is certain that they coulden't use men with small or damgaded bodies. i have an ancestor who became a sword-wound across his face, and his commandor writes, "we cannot use him as sargent any more, nor solider, he has lost quite a lot of his nose" "

I have looked up in Ål churchbook but hasen't found Ole born there- He sould be born around 1721, --awfully written", as many of the old books are.
grethe
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« Svar #14 Dato: 04 Mar 2019 - 03:34 »

Hej Grethe

Thank you again for the tingbøger information.  I found the tingbøger on AO, called justitsprotokoller, and found all the Schøllermans.  I am thankful that Johs. Lind made the extractions and put them on the internet or I would not be able to find them in the books.

Thank you for trying to find Ole Krabbe Schøllermand in the Ål church book where Hans Christopher S. was born.  I think now it was meant to be Åle sogn in Skanderborg amt, for here he was baptized in July 1722:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117

Krabbe was the mother's name?  The church book for Åle begins in 1721, so I may not find my Ole Krabbe's baptism there.

And I found the death of Hans Christopher S. in Abild sogn near Tønder, the same death written in 2 copies of the church books:

Hans Christopher Schöllerman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, kontraministeriaibog, top left, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276
Hans Christopher Schylleman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, hovedministerialbog, bottom right, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303

Peter Hindrich S. was from Ohde or Ohle?  Maybe Åle?

I will look more tomorrow.

Lisa P.
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« Svar #15 Dato: 04 Mar 2019 - 16:50 »

Hej Lisa

Ole und Peters mother was not Margethe Krabbe. She is daughter of the noble family from the manor Bierre.
Their mother was called Ohle or Ohde and Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter . Its a courios way of writing a christian name, but she might have been called Ohle/Ohde of one or another reason.

About Ohle Krabbe Skøllermann, That he called himself for Krabbe could be for 2 reasons:
1. His middlename at the baptism was krabbe as a gestus to the noble family. Oluf/Ohle Krabbe Skøllermann,
2. Margrethe Krabbe or other of the noble family was either godmother og godfather to the boy.
Ole is not found in the churchbook.

But I think that it is very believeable that he is son of Peter Skøllerman/Schöllerman, because he takes the name Krabbe. Also if you can find a son of him with the name Peter.
The family relations to Henrik is not found yet. But I have found a Bailiff called Hendrich Skøllermann married Barbara Simonsdatteri , but unfortunately the book in which it is written is not on the net.  Its "Samfundet for dansk genealogi og personalehistorie 1910-1911 , bind 2. "
side 276 Maybe you can get someone in forum to look it up for you, I am sure that somebody has the book among us.
also Peter got a child called Mette Friederica (opslag 10) i in aale sogn churchbook
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117
Is it mentioned his occupation -I mean something with cassier?  but please let others read it. He dissappears from Aale in 1730 where he gets a son Christian, but after that no sign in the churchbook. he has known the family Worm, because they also are withnesses to Christians baptism.

Grethe
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« Svar #16 Dato: 04 Mar 2019 - 17:41 »

Hej Grethe

Thank you again for the tingbøger information.  I found the tingbøger on AO, called justitsprotokoller, and found all the Schøllermans.  I am thankful that Johs. Lind made the extractions and put them on the internet or I would not be able to find them in the books.

Thank you for trying to find Ole Krabbe Schøllermand in the Ål church book where Hans Christopher S. was born.  I think now it was meant to be Åle sogn in Skanderborg amt, for here he was baptized in July 1722:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713117

Krabbe was the mother's name?  The church book for Åle begins in 1721, so I may not find my Ole Krabbe's baptism there.

And I found the death of Hans Christopher S. in Abild sogn near Tønder, the same death written in 2 copies of the church books:

Hans Christopher Schöllerman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, kontraministeriaibog, top left, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276
Hans Christopher Schylleman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, hovedministerialbog, bottom right, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303

Peter Hindrich S. was from Ohde or Ohle?  Maybe Åle?

I will look more tomorrow.

Lisa P.

So that is pretty interesting. Good thinking with Åle Sogn instead of Ål sogn. In dialectical speech they could both be "Ål".

"Peder Schellermann's barn...frembåren...frøken Mette Margrethe Krabbe".
So this child is carried forth by the noblewoman Mette Margrethe Krabbe (1704-1775); and her father was actually Ole Krabbe af Damsgaard til Bjerre (1656-1728). So it does seem very likely that Ole Krabbe Schöllermann was named after this Ole Krabbe!

So the question arises - is he just named after the noble family (the gestus or godfather/godmother as Grethe said), or is he a bastard son of Ole Krabbe of Damsgaard?

To save a noble family's honour, sometimes a bastard child would be raised by a servant family, who then took it in as their own.
Sadly I means it can be impossible to prove as it would not be registred in the church books, other than the child of the servant family.

If a bastard son was fathered, then mother and named father [udlagt barnefader] had to do official penance [åbenbar pønitense] in the church and that humiliation was for many worse than death [thus this law was removed in 1767, because of many suicides].
I seem to remember reading that noble families could avoid the public penance by writing to the King explaining [+ probably a lot of money helping the explanation] and getting exemption from it.

I agree with Grethe that a gestus towards the Krabbe family is probably the reason for Ole Krabbe Schöllermann's name, but just have in the back of the mind, that a bastard child is still a possibility.





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« Svar #17 Dato: 04 Mar 2019 - 18:19 »

About place name Ohde or Ohle:
Ohle could definitely be Åle.
There is a forest on Als today called "Ålehave" and that was spelled Ohlehauge in the 1770's.
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« Svar #18 Dato: 04 Mar 2019 - 19:00 »

Once again Lisa

Peter Skøllerman must have had a god job situation in Aale, since the noble family took part in his childrens baptism and also were witnesses and godmothers.  If Ole was a illigitime son of Ole Krabbe could of course be a possibility, but remember that the family took participation in at least 3 children, also that the children got names which were not standard for common farmers, Mette Fredericia, (Mette Margrethe Krabbe) ,  Hans Christoffer  (Hans Krabbe ), Øllegård Sophie Etelheit- Krabbes daughter called Ide Sophie-  Øllegård could be a hint to her mother)   
I beleive that he was a soldier with a rang maybe of captain or something likely, but he could also be one of the "private servants,  officials as i think I can read cassier as job.
 .
But after his service- after 6-8 yaers - he should turn back to the common life and setlle down in Abild as Käthner/Koethner -på dansk Kådner, which means a man who copyhold or take lease of half a farm, "en halvgård" in dansih . And one can compare it with a small holder.

Also about Henrik Henriksen Skøllerman I believe he has beeen in the army, but also here they have "fallen" deeply in the social class or rank.  In denmark we use a word for the soldiers who have served as "geworben" soldier, they are called "afdankede soldater" after german abdanken. But the word afdanked also have the connotation of a person who is arm, look arm in clothes and figures, dosent have a job etc. It was a big problem because there were many geworben (professionel) soldiers, and they took all the job they could get for small money and often had no home. The Guilds tried to lock them out, and told the citysens not to take work from them. But often the soldiers had learned craft and were craftsmen in the army. 
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« Svar #19 Dato: 04 Mar 2019 - 20:45 »

Hej Grethe & Niels

I found the Peder Schøllermann in Nygårds Sedler, listed as Peter Schellermann.  Another spelling of the name!

http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=332384&sort=e

He had at least 4 children in Åle, the last in 1730.  I think that this Peder Schøllermann in Åle is the same as Henrik Schøllermand in Bække sogn, Ribe amt.  Henrik had 3 sons in Bække, Peder in 1732, Julius Henrik in 1735 and Hans Jørgen in 1739.  Perhaps the father's full name was Peder Henrik Schøllermann.  Now I think I know where Henrik Schøllermann was before Bække sogn, but I don't know where he went after 1739.

My Ole Krabbe had children named Søren, Johannes, Peder, Karen, Peder, Niels, Niels, Anne Magrete, and Ane Marie with the first wife Karen Hansdatter, and Karen Kirstine, Kirsten, Erich, Anna Maria and Maren with the second wife Anna Hansdatter.  So, Søren, Peder and Anne Magrete make sense if the parents were Peder Henrik Schøllermann and Ane Magrethe Sørensdatter.  The other names may make sense as I learn more about the family.

It is too bad that the Åle kirkebøger start in 1721.  I think the church was there before.  If I am lucky, the family moved to Åle from another parish where church books exist before 1721.

And of course I should check tingbøger or justitsprotokoller in the Åle area, in case they started criminal actions there instead of waiting until moving to Bække sogn.   :Smiley

Thanks for mentioning Samfundet for dansk genealogi og personalhistorie.  I found the index online and there are many with the name Krabbe.  I think some of the earliest issues are online.  https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000518944  There are some Danish books that I can get here if the books are in a library somewhere in the U.S.  John Kvist's books about Bække and Egtved are not.   Sad

I will watch out for the possibility that Ole Krabbe may have been a bastard son of the noble Krabbe family.  I may not be able to prove it or disprove it, but I know I have more information to find, and with that, will come more understanding, I hope.

Thanks for all the help.  I have more research to do now!

Lisa P.
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« Svar #20 Dato: 04 Mar 2019 - 20:47 »

When going through the birth of the unnamed child of Peder Schellermann in September 1722 his wife should be introduced in church afterwards. Women were regarded as unclear after birth and had to be pure again for entering the church again.

1. Oktober 1722:
"gik Anne Margrethe Klein i kirke". [she went to church].
So Anne Margrethe Klein must likely be his wife;

UNLESS: the 30th of January 1723 it says:
"gik Sergeantens kone i kirke" [the Sergeant's wife went to church].

So is Peder Schellermann the Sergeant?!
No other sergeant is mentioned just before, at least what I can discern?

Jørgen Ladefoged had a child the 16th of July 1722.
- his wife went to church the 17th of September 1722.
So at least two months could pass between birth and introduction.

From September to January does seem to long a period, but it would fit a lot if Peder Schellermann was a sergeant or an ex-sergeant.

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« Svar #21 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 15:17 »

Hej Lisa and Niels

I am sure that Peter was a sergeant, but if you Niels could read what's written after the name of Mette Frideriia at her baptism, it would be  nice because I think it is something about his job. I get it to cadsierer- cassier, not sergeant. We know his wifes name and it is not the Klein- Anne Margrethe Klein is mentioned later in the churchbook and she  is married , I mean it is with the gartner (not quite sure) Peters wife is Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter surely comming from Ohle (Aale) because she is called that as nickname.  

here is the link to Mette Friederica
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713120

Hey Lisa, it could be that Henrik and Peter are brothers, but it could also be that they are cousins. We don't know for sure.
 But I don't find it obviously that Henrik Henriksen Skøllermann  in Bække is the same as Peter Skøllerman in Aale. Huh?  Why should he change his name? only if something "awfully" has happened!.
About Ole Krabbe its a different matter, if he is baptised Ohle Krabbe Skøllermand it is understandable, and to take his godmother and -fathers name is also understandable.
And of course you have earlier mentioned that Henriks sons took the familyname Pedersen?Huh? so it could be.........if that's right, that they did.

But that they are military people is nearly sure, also that apparently they have been of the geworben artillery -probably the family came from germany- Schleswig-holstein.

If you get the book from samfundet 1911, no. 2 i would like to hear whats written about this Bailiff Hendrich Skøllermann- he could be the father of the Henrik from Bække. - or ask here in the forum, I could do it too if you want!

greetings
Grethe
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« Svar #22 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 18:56 »

Hej Lisa and Niels

I am sure that Peter was a sergeant, but if you Niels could read what's written after the name of Mette Frideriia at her baptism, it would be  nice because I think it is something about his job. I get it to cadsierer- cassier, not sergeant. We know his wifes name and it is not the Klein- Anne Margrethe Klein is mentioned later in the churchbook and she  is married , I mean it is with the gartner (not quite sure) Peters wife is Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter surely comming from Ohle (Aale) because she is called that as nickname.  

here is the link to Mette Friederica
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713120

If Anna Margrethe Klein is not Peter's wife - then it almost has to be the "sergeant's wife", doesn't it?
- even if 4 months is very long for introduction back in church - but she can have been very sick afterwards??

Puuh - his handwriting is not easy there.

Pretty sure with Ca - then it's really hard.
First: It is probably Cads-?
Then there is a dot over the letters later in the word, but the priest is not precise in placing them; as later the name Søren appears in the text where it has NOT the dot placed over the -o- but over the -e-.

Cadseier as perhaps what is written ?? -> french: Caissier, eng: Cashier, germ: Kassierer (like the person we have in a bank now).
- could it be the meaning of the guy collecting money from the local indentured farmers [fæstebønder] for the nobleman.
He would then be a trusted person (handling money) and probably having a military background would "help" people to fast and timely.

Other meanings of what the priest might have written:
Casserie = metal work (flattens it into pans?) -  ["La Casserie -> usine de fabrication de casserole"].
Casseur = Rioter/hooligan from casser [to break]. They just break everything, not just metal for pans!    
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« Svar #23 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 19:42 »

Rendsborg army roster 1748:

Hinrich Schölermann.
Born: Holsten. [A lot of Schölermann's from that area].
Age: 24 years.
Service: 4 years.
Regiment: Bornholmske Regiment. Compagnie Brackel.
Source (p.1564): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273029

NB: The Marine Regiment [establish in 1672 in Glückstad] was moved to Rendsborg in 1741.
Here it weirdly took the name "Bornholmske Regiment".

Vogels Marinekompagni 1672 – 1680
Marineregimentet 1680 – 1741
Bornholmske Infanteriregiment 1741 – 1785
Århusiske Infanteriregiment 1785 – 1790
1. Jyske Infanteriregiment 1790 – 1842
7. Linie Infanteri-Bataillon 1842 – 1860
7. Infanteri-Bataillon 1860 – 1863
7. Infanteri-Regiment 1863   – 1865
7. Infanteri-Bataillon 1865 – 1867
7. Bataillon 1867– 1951-11-01
Marineregimentet 1951-11-01 – 2000-06-30

Rendsborg army roster 1742:
Ohle Krabbe Schoelermann.
Tømmermand.
Home: Jylland.
Age: 20,5 years.
Service: 4,5 years.
Unmarried.
Lutheran.
Jyske [Geworbne] Infanteri Regiment.
Kaptajn Wilsters Compagnie.  
Source (p.1811): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273276
&
Rendsborg Army Roster 1748.
Ohle Krabbe Scköllermann.
Born: Jylland.
?granadier?
Age: 26,5 years.
Service: 10,5 years.
Jyske [Geworbne Infanteri] Regiment.
Wilsters Compagnie.
Source (p. 1849): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273314

Rendsborg Army Roster 1748.
Hans Christoph[er] Scköllermann.
Born: Jylland.
?menig?
Age: 19 years.
Service: 4,5 years.
Jyske [Geworbne Infanteri] Regiment.
Wilsters Compagnie.
Source (p. 1848): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17022214#132277,21273313
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« Svar #24 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 20:05 »

Hej Lisa and Niels

I have to look once more in the -ugly - written churchbook, because the forname Ann Margrethe is the same -and it could easely be Klein Sørensdatter. I have in this case certainly learnt something about names, so I wouldn't be "überrasched" if Anne Margrethe Klein and Ann Margrethe Sørensdatter is the same. But then I have to see if Klein is linked to another man, when she is introduced.  Also who is then the sergants wife.....

Thanks for that with Cadsierer. Peter ends as Kådner in a little half farm in Abild- could he have fallen in disgrace, or was it common that the geworben soldiers after their service only became small holders if they didn't want to stay in the big cities. One of my early ancestors who let himself be geworben had enough money to boy a farm, and the lord supported him and helped him to find a suitable farm (of his own inheritage of course). He finished his service after 8 years in 1790 

Grethe
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« Svar #25 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 20:33 »

Hej Grethe

The man in the Bække KB was called Henrich Schøllermann, the man in the Koldinghus tingbøger was called Peter Henriksen Schøllerman, and the man in the Åle KB was Peter Schøllerman.  I think they are all one, Peter Henrik/Henriksen Schøllermann, because 1) the one in Åle stopped being mentioned in the KB about the same time the one in Bække had his 3 sons, 2) the youngest sons Julius and Hans used the last name Pedersen, at least sometimes.  Yes they could be brothers or cousins and I will keep that possibility in mind as I look for more information.

I found someone extracted names from the Åle KB.  Yay!  This way, the names Schøllerman and Krabbe are easy to see, but there aren't many of them.
http://www.milloup.dk/bf/aale-torring/aale-1721.htm

I am not sure about Anne Margrete Klein.  I am a little disappointed that the Åle KB do not give the name of Peter S.'s wife.  The death of Hans Christopher S. in Abild is helpful, so I need to find death records of the other children, and the parents too.

I also think the Peter Schøllerman in Åle was military.


Hej Niels

Thank you for the links to more Schøllermans in the military.  How do you know where to find these?    Huh?

And how would I find Peter Schøllerman, if he was in the military and I don't know the regiment or company?  

The Mette Margrete Krabbe from Åle married kaptajn Christopher Friderich von Ingenhoff in 1729.  How would I find him in the stambøger?  He is in Nygaards Sedler

http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171193&sort=e
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171194&sort=e  bagside
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171189&sort=e

Thank you both for all your help with this.  It has been very interesting for me to work in this time before censuses and lægdsruller!

Lisa P.
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« Svar #26 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 21:01 »

Hej Lisa

I think Niels is reight Anne Margrethe Klein and Anna Margrethe Sørensdatter called Ohle is the same person. I have looked through Aale churchbook and she is very often godmother but 1731 is the last time she is mentioned and so is her husband Peter Schøllerman  too, so I believe that she is the same person.   

And also I think you are right about the Henrik Henriksen Skøller and Peter (Henrik) Skøllerman, that they are the same person. But it is very bevildered that the names are not firm -at least a little more than we see here.

What about the book from 1911 bind 2?

Grethe
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« Svar #27 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 21:43 »

The Mette Margrete Krabbe from Åle married kaptajn Christopher Friderich von Ingenhoff in 1729.  How would I find him in the stambøger?  He is in Nygaards Sedler

http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171193&sort=e
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171194&sort=e  bagside
http://ddd.dda.dk/nygaard/visning_billed.asp?id=171189&sort=e

Thank you both for all your help with this.  It has been very interesting for me to work in this time before censuses and lægdsruller!

Lisa P.

Hi Lisa.
Yeah it is very difficult if people are not stationary and people moved around surprisingly a lot in the 1700 hundreds!

Luckily from my own family research I have no some familiarity with the military sources and I found an extensive file in
Hirsch's index of Christopher Friedrich Ingenhaven (aka Ingenhoff).

Left page:
Died in Fredericia as the last man of his line the 27th of February 1781 (buried 6th of March).
Married 13th of December 1729 Mette Margrethe Krabbe from Bjerre (14/5 1704 - 7/4 1775) - Daughter of Ole Krabbe and 2nd wife Ida Sofie Gjedde.

Anne Cathrine ?Beuthach? [other sources Benthagen] - her nickname was Støvletkatrine ["Boots-Cathrine", modern Danish: Støvle-Katrine].
- probably a daughter of Prince Georg Ludvig of Braunschweig-Lüneburg [should be Braunschweig-Bervern]
- can't read the next word?
- she was raised in his house [the Prince or Ingenhoff's?] in her first child years (Letters of Dorothea Biehl named as source)
NB: or was Støvletkatrine a mistress also of von Ingenhoff at some point [Hirsch's text is unclear here].  

Støvletkatrine (1745 - 1805) was a VERY famous prostitute, who ended up becoming mistress to King Christian VII.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%B8vlet-Cathrine
She was the illegitimate child of her godfather [hint: thus also possible for Ohle Krabbe Schöllermann]

Right page and the next pages:
Christoffer Fredrich [Ingenhaven/Ingenhoff].
Son af Georg Johan Peter [Ingenhaven] & Øllegaard Rantzau.
Born in Svinninge 15th of January 1703 [Svinninge is on Sjælland].
Land-cadet: 18th of May 1714.
Deserted (!): 1st of March 1720.
Fænrik in Jyske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment. 8th of April 1722 [same regiment as Ohle Krabbe Schöllermann was in from 1737!].
Captain in Aalborg with Nationale Infanteri Regiment 22nd of November 1728
In Drabantgarden 1/5 1731.
Captain in Nørrejyske Nationale Infanteri Regiment. 11th of February 1733.
Major 12th of February 1737.
Brigade-Major in Hannover (in English service) after 4th of March 1741.
Oberstløjtnant [Lieutenant-colonel] Sjællandske Geworbne Infanteri Regiment: 3rd of April 1744.
Oberst (Colonel) and Chief for Sydjyske Nationale Infanteri Regiment 18th of July 1753. (buys out Oberst Banner Kaas for 300 rigsdaler).
Generalmajor: 22nd of April 1761.
Pension: 16th of October 1763. 800 rigsdaler.
White Knight: 1769.
Kommandant of Fredriksten. 14th of February 1770.
Kommandant of Akershus and General-løjtnant. 4th of September 1772.
Kommandant in Fredericia. 13th of January 1773.
Out of Service: 9th of June 1780 because of health-problems.
Source: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198758,37662217
& https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Frederik_Ingenhaeff

His male-officer-family-members you will find on the next pages of Hirsch's index.
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« Svar #28 Dato: 05 Mar 2019 - 22:20 »

Edit: Christian Frederik Ingenhaven was son of Generalmajor Johan Peter Ingenhaven/Ingenhaeff (died 1717).
Source: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Peter_von_Ingenhaeff

According to the Danish wiki page on Støvletkatrine she was send into the care of a regimental oberst (who received money) after she was baptised. When she was three years old the father the Prince died and she was then send to her mother.
So since Christian Frederik Ingenhaven was a oberstløjtnant in that period he is likely her fosterfather for those three years!

The Prince actually married his mistress (Anne Marie Schrøder) to one of his soldiers (Johan Ernst Benthagen) as it was custom....
Anna Kathrine (støvletkatrine)'s surname thus became Benthagen.

So it is possible that Anne Margrethe Sørensdatter Klein could have been a mistress of Ole Krabbe?

Then Anne Margrethe was married of to soldier Peder Schöllermann and the son given the name Ohle Krabbe Schöllermann.
After that possible sacrifice the Schöllermann family was really in very good standing with the Krabbe family as they keep the secret (furthermore they (or only he?) weren't local - they might just have appeared in the parish in 1721 with a young baby).
So it could explain why so many Krabbe family members are godfathers and godmothers for the Schöllermann children?

PS: Baptism of Mette Fredericia Schöllermann in 1727.
Løjtnant Ingenhaef is named just after Mette Margrethe Krabbe [so they already knew each other before married in 1729].
In 1728 he becomes a Captain.
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« Svar #29 Dato: 06 Mar 2019 - 16:24 »

That Anne Margrethe Klein should have been etatsråd Krabbes mistress I find plausibel. Krabbe dies in 1728 - 71 years old.
If he is the father, and it is one of his sons who have mede an illigitime son, I don't know because I am not sure it is Ole Krabbe who dies here.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17127424#171056,28713123

But it could explain the Skøllermanns depart from Aale to Bække, also their apparently poorness .

And Lisa you know were the family went to, to Abild in Tønder.  When Hans Christopher died in 1796- se that- it is written that Peter Henrik comes from Ohle (its not a call name for Ann Margrethe- I mistook)  and is Kådner. In the one- which is hard to read, I think there stands that Peter Henrik Skøllerman is Witve- it means that he still lives.
Try to get it translated- also the place where Hans Christopher lives -in the one I think it says Swilde.but....

Citat
Hans Christopher Schöllerman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, kontraministeriaibog, top left, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215889#200854,38034276
Hans Christopher Schylleman, Abild sogn, Tønder amt, hovedministerialbog, bottom right, https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17215712#200837,38031303

greetings Grethe
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