Looking for my 6th grandfather August Davidsen

Startet af James Dahl, 30 Jan 2013 - 00:09

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James Dahl

I finally confirmed what I had suspected but was largely unsure of for some time, I found the marriage record for my 5th grandfather, Christian August Albertsen.

It turns out he was born Christian Albrecht Augustsen after all, his marriage record says "Christian Augustsen".  I am not sure if he changed his name or what, it's rather odd.

I found that he was married in Lyne, Nørre Horne herred, Ringkøbing amt to my 5th grandmother Maren Cathrine Jensdatter on 30 July 1791.  She was from the area, but I cannot find her in the records of Lyne sogn, though she was probably born around 1757.

Christian Albrecht Augustsen was born in Sønder Stenderup, Nørre Tyrstrup herred, Vejle amt on 20 March 1757, his mother Else Magrethe Hansdatter was born in Middelfart on Fyn (Vends herred, Odense amt) and baptized on 12 July 1716 to Hans Rasmussen and Anna Maria Povelsdatter.

His father however is a mystery, August Davidsen.  He was a rytter, perhaps a member of one of the Rytterregiments or Kyrasserregiments garrisoned in and around Kolding.  Christian was the youngest of 6 sons, born when both Else Magrethe and August were in their early 40s, and was probably a teenager when his mother died in 1771.  From the burial record, it seems August Davidsen was still alive when Else Magrethe died (she was 55).

I can find nothing about him though, not his year or place of birth nor death, when they married, or even where he is originally from.  The only additional details I have are the other 5, older sons, all confirmed in Sønder Stenderup (though only the younger ones born there)

Hans Peter Augustsen (born around 1738? he was confirmed in 1756 but it doesn't say his age.  All the other sons were confirmed when they were 18, so I'm guessing he was too)
Rasmus Augustsen (was 18 in 1760 when he was confirmed, so I guess a birthday of about 1742)
Jørgen Augustsen (was 18 in 1764 when he was confirmed, so I guess a birthday of about 1746)
Friderich Christian Albret Augustsen (born 14 May 1751 in Sønder Stenderup, confirmed in 1769 age 18)
Johan Augustsen (born 8 Nov 1753 in Sønder Stenderup, not confirmed in Sønder Stenderup?  Maybe went to live with relatives somwhere when his mother died?)
Christian Albrecht Augustsen (my ancestor, born 20 Mar 1757 in Sønder Stenderup, not confirmed in Sønder Stenderup?  Maybe went to live with relatives somwhere when his mother died?)

I am not sure how to proceed.

Ole Westermann

Hi James,

I think that Christian Albrecht Augustsen's father's name was August/Augustinus David.
David is a common surname in ex. Holstein (se census 1803 there), and I think he joined the Cavalry Regiment after 1730.

In 1730 King Christian VI had stopped the conscription of cavalrymen (ryttere) from the socalled 'rytterdistrikter', and until 1790 the cavalry regiments only have enlisted (payed) cavalrymen.
A great number of enlisted soldiers came from Schleswig-Holstein and Germany to join the Danish army.

In Kolding was
1732-63: 1. Fynske Nationale Rytterregiment 
The garrison was abt 5-10% of the population in the town.

He didn't get married 1733-40 to Else Margrete in either Middelfart, Kolding, Fredericia or Vejle as far as I could see.
At Christian Albrecht's baptism in 1757 I read August's 'surname' as 'Pelsmager' (fur maker), and in 1764 and 1771 he is 'handskemager' (glove maker). He probably retired from the cavalry in the mid-1750ies.

Where did Christian Albrecht August(e)sen & Maren Cathrine Jensdatter go after thier marriage ?

Ole

Søren Juul Mikkelsen

Hi James,

there is a boy born in Sønder Stenderup in 1749 (1728-1763 opslag 21, no. 5) that looks like yet another son:

Martinus, David Rytters søn fød d:7 marts, døbt d:9 marts


He dies 5 days old (next column).

Also I would like to give a link to an older thread you started, that gives more information about the family:
http://www.dis-danmark.dk/forum/read.php?11,685315

Kind regards
Søren





James Dahl

#3
Dear Ole,

Christian, my ancestor, he married Maren Cathrine Jensdatter in Lyne Sogn, Nørre Horne Herred, Ringkøbing Amt.  I have no idea why he was in north Jutland, they got married about 2 months after their first child, Else Maria Christiansdatter, was born in Norhede, where they were living.  Soon after he married he traveled back to Nørre Tyrstrup, first to Skartved, where my ancestor, Jens Christiansen Andsager, was born.  They then settled in Dalby and stayed there for the rest of their lives, and had two more children, two daughters.

The sudden move to Norhede in Ringkøbing threw me for a loop as I could not find any record of their marriage, and also for ages I couldn't be sure if he was actually born in Stenderup.  He changed his name after he moved to Dalby and started going by "Christian August Albertsen" instead of Christian Albert Augustsen, and since the death record was the only record I had that had a clear representation of his name (His baptism record is hard to read, and his name is hard to distinguish from his fathers) I searched in vain for Christian August Albertsen for years.

I am actually quite proud of making it this far, I was sure I would never learn anything more about Christian Albert, but now I may well and truly be stuck.

I suspect my surname, Dahl, comes from Dalby.

Dear Søren,

I am not sure that is one of their children, it should say August or Augustinus like the other 6 sons.  Not all of them said David or Davidsen but they all said August.

James Dahl

#4
I think I've found a clue!  ;D

I've long searched for a clue as to the identity of August, I think I found the baptism record of one of Christian August's siblings, Jorgen August.

I have snipped out the relevant bit from Opslag 52, Odense, Sct Hans - Garnisonskirken, Odense Herred, Odense Amt

http://i.imgur.com/0LK5MPo.png

I think his regiment is in there and his real last name, which looks like Treve or something.

James Dahl

I read that he was an "rytter ved Obrist" (cavalry Colonel) in Poohls Compagnie in Major General Neubergs Regiment.  His wife is "Else Marie Hans Datter" which is different from Else Magrethe Hansdatter though this doesn't mean it isn't her (she went by Grethe Hansdatter later).

James Dahl

#6
I wonder if there are any documents for that regiment still around?  I misread the document it just says Treues, so not his surname after all  :P

Bill Sandve

Odense Sankt Hans, Copuliert 15 Jun 1743, Augustavus Treuesen, Enke Margrethe Jørgen Petersens. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22681248#476870,85366981
Jørgen Petersen, rytter, d. 11 Jun 1743.
Jørgen Petersen and Else Margrethe Hansdatter had a son, Frideric Carl, døbt. 24 May 1743 Odense, d. 10 Oct 1743 Odense. https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22681248#476870,85367081

Niels Just Rasmussen

#8
Citat fra: James Dahl Dato 12 Nov 2014 - 12:03
I read that he was an "rytter ved Obrist" (cavalry Colonel) in Poohls Compagnie in Major General Neubergs Regiment. [It only says General]  His wife is "Else Marie Hans Datter" which is different from Else Magrethe Hansdatter though this doesn't mean it isn't her (she went by Grethe Hansdatter later).

You don't give the place or year for this; but it must fit with the following:

Ahlefeldts Kyrasserregiment   1700-1705      
Würtembergske Kyrasserregiment   1705-1717      
Schubarts Kyrasseregiment           1717-1731      
Neubergs Kyrasserregiment   1731-1748      
Holstenske Kyrasserregiment   1748-1767      
Holstenske Dragonregiment   1767-1772      
Holstenske Rytterregiment           1772-1816      
Holstenske Lanseregiment (Lanséerregiment)   1816-1842      
ophævet   1842   
Kilde: https://www.wadschier.dk/haeren-garnisoner-regimentschefer/haer/neubergs-kyrasserregiment/81

Most likely the general between 1731-1748 was Adolph von Neuberg: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_von_Neuberg
He became General-Major in 1739 and General-Lieutenant in 1747!   

Sadly the "stambog" for the regiment [under Holstenske Lanserregiment] is only preserved from 1754.
Se here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-N3ZZ-Z5DV?cat=416356

4 of the Regiment's companies had their garrison in Odense (1734-1743 & 1747-1758)
5 of the Regiment's companies had their garrison in Kolding between 1743-1747.
Kilde: https://www.wadschier.dk/haeren-garnisoner-regimentschefer/garnisoner/neubergs-kyrasserregiment/81

Kyrasser = Cuirassier [heavy armoured cavalry] used as Shock-cavalry. [Cuirasse is French = breastplate]

Niels Just Rasmussen

Also just an idea.

It seems he is called "Augustavus ?Traues?"
Could it be his origin of birth?

Traves is a small village in France (Haute-Saône department).
See: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traves

"Auguste David" (from Traves) is a name that could easily be French.....and at that time period you had professionel soldiers from France in the Danish Army...

PS: Also found out that the German town Trier is actually called Trèves in French.
Even better its Latin name was "Augusta Treverorum" [-> August Traves......if we corrupt it a bit!!].
The city was actually in french possession 1794-1815.



Niels Just Rasmussen

#10
Odense Handskemager Laug. [Odense Glover Guild]
Register til lavsprotokoller (1684-1868)
August Davidsen Try/Trij = Trier?
I "Forbundet" Paaske 1743. [Unclear what is meant by "Forbundet" - Holy Roman Empire? -> Holsten?]
Svend 25/6 1743 [Svend = German: Geselle, English: Journeyman]
III, 14.
Kilde (s. 18): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17129696#174621,29334916
&
Odense Handskemagerlav. Kopibog for lærekontrakter (1741-1868) [Book III]
Pagina 14.
August Davidssen Try/Trij is mentioned on the right [the text is quite hard to read, so you will need some expert help here]
Kilde (s. 15, right page): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=19982209#273562,52214447

So we have a "handskemager" [Glover] August Davidsen (from Trier?) -> it must be him with 99% certainty! 

Niels Just Rasmussen

#11
If August Davidsen is Danish [and not a foreign hired soldier] the name Try could also be a Danish place name "Try".

There is a Try in Dronninglund Parish: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dronninglund_Sogn
and a Try in Torslev Sogn: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torslev_Sogn_(Frederikshavn_Kommune)

So it's definitely worth examining whether he comes from one of these places [though it doesn't explain, why he is called "Augustavus Traues"]

Niels Just Rasmussen

#12
He was in Obrist Pfuhls Compagnie in Neubergs Regiment [not Poohls].

This is Emanuel Pfuhl. Hirsch' kartotek over danske og norske officerer.
Arrived in Schubarts Kyrasseregiment 22/7 1717 as Kornet [Schubarts Kyrasserregiment became Neubergs Kyrasserregiment in 1731 with the appointment of a new regimental leader].
k [= Constituted?] Obrist 5/6 1744 in Neubergs Kyrasserregiment.
Kilde (s. 108): https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=17202077#198835,37674484
NB: Information that his company was garrisoned in Assens 1751-1755. [From 1748-1767 = Holstenske Kyrasserregiment]
He either retired, died or left the company 13/8 1755. 
The regiment is "geworben" meaning its only professionel hired soldiers - so they could be from anywhere in Europe.

Full name apparently: Emanuel Theodatus/Theodorus von Pfuel/Pfuhl.
Died in Assens 3/8 1755 and buried 11/8 1755.
See: https://finnholbek.dk/getperson.php?personID=I37912&tree=2
&
See also about him here: https://books.google.dk/books?id=McNUAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=emanuel+pfuhl&source=bl&ots=M8pn9omdVw&sig=ACfU3U2hNdf5wBLLItnHSfMaMbOp27VdZA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVmZnH093yAhUaQfEDHX5qD5QQ6AF6BAghEAM#v=onepage&q=emanuel%20pfuhl&f=false

James Dahl

#13
This has definitely confirmed the basic facts I know about Augustavus Treu, or Try, or Trij sometimes Davidsen, or David, sometimes Rytter, sometimes Handskemager.  Once as Augustavus Davidsen Try which I believe is most likely his name.  This is how it was written on his apprenticeship records.

He finished an apprenticeship to join the glovemakers guild in Odense, then for reasons unknown joined the army as a Cuirassier, then retired and again became a glovemaker, then vanished off the face of the earth.

I have no idea when or where he died, though he was still alive when his wife Else died.  He moved from Odense to Sonder Stenderup between 1748 and 1751 (the birth of his oldest son was in Odense in 1748 and his second son in Sonder Stenderup in 1751).  Else was much older than August (it was her second marriage she had already had three sons from an earlier marriage and was a widow) and my ancestor was their youngest child and Else was 40 when she had my ancestor Christian Albrecht Augustesen (who for reasons unknown decided to start going by Christian August Albertsen).

The fact that my ancestor August Davidsen Treu disappears and apparently my ancestor did not want to identify as his son for some reason is very mysterious to me.  There is a 20 years gap in Christian Albrecht's life, after his mother Else dies when Christian was 14 years old I can find no trace of him until 20 years later he has a daughter out of wedlock at 34 years old, Else Maria Christiansdatter Augusta far away in Nørhede, in Ringkøbing amt.  He  then decides to marry his girlfriend, Maren Cathrine Jensdatter who was also 34 years old and unmarried and a native of Nørhede.  After they got married they would move to Dalby, back down in Tyrstrup herred where he was born, and have 3 more children including my ancestor his eldest son Jens Christiansen Andsager.  Why his surname was Andsager I have no idea.  His younger sister was the first of my family to be surnamed Dall and his youngest sister was surnamed Damgaard.

It is this move to Dalby why I have the surname Dahl, as he did not have a surname but the new surname law forced him to choose one, and all subsequent descendants of my male line would be surnamed Dall or Dahl.  My family originally spelled this Dall but chose to spell it Dahl two generations later.

The many unanswered questions I have:
1) Where was August Davidsen Treu born, was he Danish?  If he was a foreigner, why join the glover's guild as a young teenager in Odense?  If he was an Odense native, why was he able to join a Cuirassier regiment of professional soldiers?

2) What happened to August after Else died?  Where did he go?  Where did he die?  Did he remarry?  He was in his 40s when Else died, he may have had a whole other life after this.

3) What did Christian do in the 20 years between his mother's death in Sønder Stenderup and the birth of his daughter in Nørhede?  What was he doing in Nørhede?  He has no relatives in Nørhede that I know of, and it is far away from Sønder Stenderup, on the opposite side of Jutland.  Why did he never marry until his mid 30s?  Why did he then leave Nørhede and return to Tyrstrup herred and settle in Dalby?  Why did he start going by Christian August Albertsen?  Was that just a clerical error or did he change his name for some reason?

4) He had 7 brothers and no sisters, at least 6 of whom survived into adulthood as they are listed in his mother Else's death record, but I haven't been able to find any information on any of them.  3 of them were half siblings from Else's prior marriage, one of which I believe died in childhood (Friderich Carl Jürgensen) as she had another, Friderich Christian Albrecht Augustsen, with August.  She must have loved her first husband as her first child with August was literally named after him.

This is all of Else Magrethe Hansdatter's children:

With Jürgen Petersen (Married 1738):

Hans Peter Jürgensen (b. approx 1738)
Rasmus Jürgensen (b. approx 1741)
Friderich Carl Jürgensen (b. 24 May 1743 in Odense) likely died in childhood as Else later has another Friderich, which would have been very confusing if this Friderich was still alive.  Only one Friderich is listed as alive in her death record.

Jürgen Petersen died two weeks later on 11 June 1743, leaving Else Magrethe heartbroken with a newborn baby, or perhaps there was some event that killed her husband and her newborn baby at the same time.  I am not sure on the details, the death record for Jürgen Petersen is light on details and I haven't found any death record for little Friderich Carl.

She remained a widow for a little more than two years but then accepted an offer of marriage from my ancestor August, and signed their engagement on 23 June 1745 and got married on 15 October 1745 in Odense.  With August she had four more sons.

Jørgen Peter Augustsen (b. 4 Feb 1746 in Odense)
Friderich Christian Albrecht Augustsen (b. 14 May 1751 in Sønder Stenderup)
Johan Augustsen (b. 8 Nov 1753 in Sønder Stenderup)
Christian Albrecht Augustsen (b. 20 Mar 1757 in Sønder Stenderup) <- my ancestor, born when she was 40 years old.

Else died on 20 Dec 1771 in Sønder Stenderup, still married to August who was by then retired from the army and had returned to his original profession as a glovemaker.

Niels Just Rasmussen

#14
Hi James.

To answer your question 1:
Names in Danish church books are what the priest decided to write and NOT always what the person called themselves.
[For instance I have a ancestor who in the census always goes by "Jens Just" [= full correct name was Jens Jensen Just], but is in the church books is often called Jens Justesen].
So he could a Danish "August Davidsen", where his father was named David OR it could be the priest inserting a faulty -sen to a fixed surname "David". 

So the name Treu/Try/Trij could either be a place name of origin OR a surname, though I think the first most likely!
Rytter/Handskemager is off course occupational names......

About joining the Odense Glover Guild.
Is I understand it he was likely already a professional soldier in Neubergs Kyrasserregiment garrisoned in Odense, when he was allowed to take a "Svendeprøve" with the guild (which he passed). He doesn't have to be a young teenager to do this, maybe he already had experience and just had to prove locally that he was accomplished?
Many foreigners became part of the Danish guilds (German, Dutch, Swedish etc), so he doesn't have to be local.

EDIT: At his marriage in 1743 in Odense he is called "ærlige og welagte unge karl Agustavus Treusen".
Kilde: https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=22681248#476870,85366981
So he is NOT a soldier in 1743 (not called Rytter) and here again the priest inserts a likely faulty -sen to "Treu".
He could have been hired by Neubergs Kyrasserregiment from 1743-1751.

As a professional soldier you were often engaged for a period of 8 years (as a standard and then you could re-negotiate) and the professional Danish regiments had soldiers from Denmark, Norway, Slesvig-Holsten and the German Free-Towns as the bulk of the personnel, but also soldiers from Sweden, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Austria-Hungary, Poland appear etc. As you could haggle with the agents (receiving "hand-money" right away) some daring soldiers let themselves be hired, deserted and went to another county letting themselves to hired again etc.
I seem to remember a French soldier in the 1700's (who wrote his memoirs down) first deserting from the French army, then joining the Prussian army, deserting from them and then joining the Danish army! That's why you even have professional SWEDISH (the arch-enemy) soldiers in Danish professional regiments - those who most likely had deserted the Swedish army.

Where the National regiments was comprised of drafted peasant-boys from a specific geographical area; the Professional [= geworbne] regiments hired people by sending travelling agents around towns in Denmark, Norway (restricted to a few regiments), Slesvig-Holsten and German Towns [only foreign places the Danish army hired soldiers].
European youth with military aspirations flocked to these German towns to get hired by whatever army paid the most - it was the "hot spots" for European professional armies to hire soldiers].
Thats why so many nationalities ends up in the Danish professional regiments.

So if August David(sen) Try/Trij stops being a professional soldier between 1748-1751 he was probably engaged by a regiment-agent between 1740-1743......
If he was a Odense native, he was from a "Købstad" and thus not regarded as a peasant-boy for the National Regiments......so he could easily let himself be hired by a professional regiment.

Professional Regiments in Europe at that time was Mercenaries Regiments.
One other thing -> being hired into a Professional Regiment you generally had to be taller than average and of beautiful build (no crooked legs). Soldiers had to pay out of their own salary to be immaculate in uniform and powdered face and wigs and shining leather boots So being a professional soldier often meant you had to have manual work at the side to avoid starving as the beauty-cost ate most of your soldiers-pay.
So having a craft to pursue beside soldiering was a smart thing
[though many places in Denmark the guilds banned soldiers entry into their guilds!]
The beauty of the professional soldiers was important for monarchs in Europe at the time. How they looked reflected on them.

The view of manly masculine legs of the time is quite different of what is considered masculine today.
French King Louis 14 showing his masculine legs for the world to behold: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/B354Y0/louis-xiv-king-of-france-painting-by-hyacinthe-rigaud-1701-louvre-B354Y0.jpg

Here a reconstructed image of the Slesvigske Kyrasserregiment 1716 and 1761.
See: https://www.linksbuketten.dk/zz106-2.jpg
So for Neubergs Kyrasserregiment probably the same, just likely with different regimental colouring.
PS: Think of the work to have these boots SHINING for every inspection, every day, year in and year out!

Hope this helps a little with the understanding.
Niels 

Niels Just Rasmussen

Odense Glover Guild -> August becomes Svend in 1743
Marriage was off course in 1745 -> August "unge karl" [so NOT in military and not married before]
Jørgen Peter Augustsen (b. 4 Feb 1746 in Odense) -> August at Neubergs Kyrasserregiment, Pfuhls Compagnie.
Friderich Christian Albrecht Augustsen (b. 14 May 1751 in Sønder Stenderup) -> August called "rytter", so likely still in the military.
Johan Augustsen (b. 8 Nov 1753 in Sønder Stenderup) -> August called "rytter", so likely still in the military.
Christian Albrecht Augustsen (b. 20 Mar 1757 in Sønder Stenderup) -> August called "Pelsmager" [Glove and Fur-makers were often in the same guild together]

Overview:
So he must have entered into the military in 1745-1746.
Normal time period was 8 years for a professionel contract [1745/46 - 1753/54]
In 1751 & 1753 he is still called "rytter", so likely still in the regiment until 1753-1754.
In 1757 he is named after his trade [which he acquired back in 1743 in Odense]

So was his company [under Neubergs Regiment] garrisoned in Kolding and the surrounding areas 1751-1753?