Zacharias Christopher Goltz and Maria Charlotte Wattenbergsk (m 31 May 1748)

Startet af Dan Hansen, 22 Jun 2015 - 04:02

Forrige emne - Næste emne

Dan Hansen

Translation help please.

I'm trying to get as much information about Zacharias and Maria as possible but firstly I need a translation on the only

three bits of information I have on them.

Their Marriage
Amt: Frederiksborg    
Herred: Lynge-Frederiksborg
Sogn: Hillerød         
Kirkebog: Hillerød & Frederiksborg   1697   1766
Opslag: 91

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-33528-3458-84?cc=2078555&wc=M5KF-DPJ:357516401,358942301,358942302,358942303

or

http://oi58.tinypic.com/zu2xr6.jpg



Their daughter Anna Maria's birth
Amt: København
Herred: Sokkelund
Sogn: Skt Nikolaj   
Kirkebog: Skt Nikolaj   1746   1765
Opslag: 43

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-33443-2205-22?cc=2078555&wc=M5VN-PYS:357517801,357517802,360752801,360755101

or

http://i60.tinypic.com/fc0077.jpg



Their son Johan Frideric's birth
Amt: København
Herred: Sokkelund
Sogn: Skt Nikolaj   
Kirkebog: Skt Nikolaj   1746   1765
Opslag: 86

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-33443-1877-1?cc=2078555&wc=M5VN-PYS:357517801,357517802,360752801,360755101

or

http://oi62.tinypic.com/foj2ns.jpg



Thank you in advance.

Dan      
Direct descendant of Christopher Madsen (circa 1754), Ane Marie Goltz (1748), Sebastian Møller, Poul Poulsen (1696), Tøger Hansen (1747), Michel Jensen (1630) and Eukaryote I (circa 1,800,000,000 BC)

Ralph Rasmussen

The first two, transcribed & interpreted:

from entry above: Copulerede d 3 Maij
Goltz entry:
Fredagen 31 Maii bliver
efter Kongelige allernaadigste
Tilladelse hiemme i Huuset co-
puleret Zacharias Christopher
Goltz og Maria Charlatta [sic]
Wattenbergsk.  Forlover
for et og for alt var under-
tegnede
Emio?? Christoph Pr Goltz [his signature]
Peter Petersen [his signature]

Ditto [dato] Zacharias Christopher Goltz, Kudsk i Store Kongens-
gade, og Maria Charlotte Watebergs [En Datter kaldet] Anna Maria.  Fadd:
Johan Michel Møller ........ paa Østergade, Poul Christophersen,
Hiulmand i Mynstergade, Drathmand, Grovsmid paa gl [gammel] Torv, Madme
Else Møllers, bemte [beldte] .......s Hustru, og Jomfr Friderica Dorthe
Holst

Friday, May 31, in accord with the gracious royal concession, at home there were married ZCG and MCW.  The guarantors, the undersigned, CG and PP

On the above date had ZCG, drayman in Store Kongensgade, and MCW a daughter baptized.  witnesses JMM [title/occupation] in Østergade, wheelwright in Mynstergade PC, smith D of Gammeltorv, madam Else Møllers, wife of the above [titled JMM], and miss FDH.

Med venlig Hilsen
Ralph Rasmussen
<1850 Hammer herred, Præstø

Ralph Rasmussen

#2
And:

d: 14 Ditto Zacharias Goltz, Kudsk hos den Spanske Envoje, paa Kongens Nye
Torv, og Charlotte Maria Wartbergs E: S: K: Johan Frideric.  Fadd: Can-
celiraad Clausen i Raadhuusstræde, Secretair Fravel? hos den Svendske
Envoje i Skindergade, Gerhard Filip Schench Regiments Feltskiærer
i lille Kongensgade, Madme Anna Lucia Lange, Muurmester Hustrue
paa Kongens Nye Torv, og Jomfr Dorte? Alexandrina Lange.

The fourteenth of this month, ZG, drayman/chauffeur to the Spanish envoy at Kongens Ny Torv, and CMW a son named Johan Frideric.  Witnesses Canceliråd Clausen living in Rådhusstræde, clerk F with the Swedish envoy in Skindergade, GFS, military cloth worker in Lille Kongensgade, madam ALL wife of the master mason at Kongens Ny Torv, and miss AL.

It is not clear which are residences, which places of employment, and which are both.

Some of the principals, especially in the wedding record, may be named in the accounts of the fire in 1729.

Med venlig Hilsen
Ralph Rasmussen
<1850 Hammer herred, Præstø

Dan Hansen

Thanks Ralph,

There's a lot of information to work through. I was wondering if you (or anyone else) could help me.

The names, particularly the surname Goltz and Wattenberg, seem extremely non-Danish. I suspect Holstein-Schleswig. Is there anyway of finding out? Are there immigration records for the mid 1700s anywhere? His children adopted Goltz as their surname. But his grandchildren used the Danish tradition and became Davidsens and Frederiksens.

Also, on the marriage notice it says "in accord with the gracious royal concession". Is this common? Under what circumstances would this occur. Could it just be because they were non-Danes they needed permission.

Regards

Dan


Direct descendant of Christopher Madsen (circa 1754), Ane Marie Goltz (1748), Sebastian Møller, Poul Poulsen (1696), Tøger Hansen (1747), Michel Jensen (1630) and Eukaryote I (circa 1,800,000,000 BC)

Mikkel Eide Eriksen

Hi Dan

The names indeed sound very German. There were often many foreigners in Copenhagen & the market towns at the time, but Schleswig-Holstein is probably a good start for further searches. To my knowledge, there are no immigration records so far back, citizenship (indfødsret/naturalization) was only required for state/municipal positions from 1776 onwards.

Goltz may have obtained a letter of "borgerskab" (bourgeoisie privileges) from the Copenhagen or Hillerød magistrates. If so, he can be found in their protocols, which often list place of birth (though commonly somewhat imprecisely).

The royal concession was likely needed because they were married in their home instead of the church. This was somewhat popular among the bourgeoisie, especially if the bride was "showing". Concessions were also required for marriage in a church they didn't belong to, or if the groom or more likely bride was too young. It may be possible to find the concession (and their application) in the archives, however I don't have experience searching them prior to 1800 where a new system was introduced.

Regards,
Mikkel
Interesse: alt Gilleleje plus Lindberg/Humble (SE/DK) Svane (Mors) Behringer (Alsace/DK/NO) Bortvig/Fleischer (Lolland)

Hjælper gerne med Sverige: https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,153986

Dan Hansen

Hi Mikkel,

Thanks for that information, it has given me a bit more to look for. I'm not sure if the bride was "showing" at that stage but the fact their child was christened seven months after the wedding indicates the long family tradition of "shotgun weddings" started with a "blunderbuss wedding" in 1748. Or maybe the Danish were ahead of their time when it came to humidicrib technology.

I have been doing a bit more research and found at around 1754 Goltz returned to Hillerød and had a few more kids. During this time he seemed to have dropped "Zacharias" and was referred to as Christopher Goltz. He seemed to have then moved to Gørløse at about 1769 where he died 23 Nov 1787. He appears in the 1787 census in Gørløse living with his son, Friderich.

I have found a few more records that I would like some one to transcribe and translate for me.

1. A land purchase document.

http://www.skaevingekommune-ejerlav.dk/goerloese/goerloese-ejerlav/6a-kilder.htm




2. Christening of Peter Christian (is the father Christopher Goltz?)

http://www.danishfamilysearch.com/sogn266/churchbook/source9750/opslag3084477



Thanks

Dan
Direct descendant of Christopher Madsen (circa 1754), Ane Marie Goltz (1748), Sebastian Møller, Poul Poulsen (1696), Tøger Hansen (1747), Michel Jensen (1630) and Eukaryote I (circa 1,800,000,000 BC)

Dan Hansen

I was just wondering if someone could decipher and translate the following for me.

Direct descendant of Christopher Madsen (circa 1754), Ane Marie Goltz (1748), Sebastian Møller, Poul Poulsen (1696), Tøger Hansen (1747), Michel Jensen (1630) and Eukaryote I (circa 1,800,000,000 BC)

Mikkel Eide Eriksen

Hi Dan

Apologies, I missed your previous post.

I read:

Citat1769 d: 18 April
No 29.

Christopher Golts antager Gaar-
den No 11 af Hartkorn 8 Td: 1 Skp:
som Anders Sørensen ej længer
kunde vedblive. Bygningen
er 3 Længder i slett Stand. Be-
kommer ikkun maanedlig Be-
sætning, beløbende til 63 rd: 4 mk: –
derfor er Fæsteren accorderet fri
for Formandens Restancer, til 1767
Aars Udgang, og Hielp til at
[best?] 12 rd: saa og Fæste.

Frie

English:

CitatChristopher Golts takes the Farm
No 11 of [8+1/8 barrels hard grain]
that Anders Sørensen no longer
could upkeep. The building
is 3 wings in bad condition.
Only generates monthly the
equivalent of 63 rigsdaler 4 mark. –
Therefore the copyholder is
accorded free of the
predecessor's restances until
the end of 1767, and assistance
to [? 12 rigsdaler ?]

Free

I am unsure of the exact meaning of the last sentence. It's not a land purchase, but a copyhold agreement ("fæste"). The land and buildings are owned by the local estate, and Goltz has the right of use of them for a fee (or equivalent work for the estate).

regards
Mikkel
Interesse: alt Gilleleje plus Lindberg/Humble (SE/DK) Svane (Mors) Behringer (Alsace/DK/NO) Bortvig/Fleischer (Lolland)

Hjælper gerne med Sverige: https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,153986

Jørgen Thue Pedersen

Til Mikkel; det kan du vel finde en oversættelse på, hvis du er enig:

Slutn.:

Og Hielp til et
Beest 12 rd.  saa og Fæste .... Frie

(og hjælp til et bæst )
http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=b%C3%A6st

(Det er ikke sikkert, at "saa" betyder "at så", det kan også være "således også Fæste", men det er jeg usikker på, da man skulle se protokollens formulering andre steder).

mvh

Jørgen
mvh
Jørgen

Mikkel Eide Eriksen

Tak Jørgen!

Dan: The last sentence thus ends "assistance for a beast 12 rigsdaler and also for the copyhold". The "saa og Fæste" part is ambiguous, and can mean both "also for the copyhold" and "sow (verb) and copyhold". "Beast" is used for larger farm animals, most likely a horse.

Mikkel
Interesse: alt Gilleleje plus Lindberg/Humble (SE/DK) Svane (Mors) Behringer (Alsace/DK/NO) Bortvig/Fleischer (Lolland)

Hjælper gerne med Sverige: https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,153986

Dan Hansen

Hi Mikkel and Jørgen

Lots of interesting information but I was hoping that it may have indicated where old Great Grandpa Goltz originally came from. I'll keep looking and if I find anything else I'll post it again in this thread.

Thanks again.

Dan
Direct descendant of Christopher Madsen (circa 1754), Ane Marie Goltz (1748), Sebastian Møller, Poul Poulsen (1696), Tøger Hansen (1747), Michel Jensen (1630) and Eukaryote I (circa 1,800,000,000 BC)

Dan Hansen

I have found another reference to old Great Grandpa Goltz and was wondering if anyone could help with transcription and translation.



To me it seems as if the son is named Friedrich Carl and the Godfather is named His Excellency von Gram.

Could the Godfather be Friedrich Carl von Gram?

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Carl_von_Gram

Regards

Dan Hansen
Direct descendant of Christopher Madsen (circa 1754), Ane Marie Goltz (1748), Sebastian Møller, Poul Poulsen (1696), Tøger Hansen (1747), Michel Jensen (1630) and Eukaryote I (circa 1,800,000,000 BC)

Mikkel Eide Eriksen

Hi Dan

I read:

CitatTirsdagen d: 30 Novembr
døbt Kjøbmandens Christopher
Goltz Søn, og kaldet Fride-
rich Carl. Regimentskri-
verens Kiæreste bar Ham, Fad-
derne vare: Hans excellen-
ce Amtmand von Gram, Monsr
Germin hos Regimentskri-
veren, og Jomfru Møller ibd.

That is,

CitatTuesday November 30, baptized merchant Christopher Goltz' son, and named Friderich Carl. The regimental scrivener's [fiancée, possibly wife] held him, Witnesses were: His excellency county administrator von Gram, monsieur Germin with the regimental scrivener['s office], and miss Møller, same place.

There's no year on the snippet, but it's likely the correct county administrator (amtmand) von Gram you've found.

"Regimental scriveners" were the administrators of the rytterdistrikter.

mvh
Mikkel
Interesse: alt Gilleleje plus Lindberg/Humble (SE/DK) Svane (Mors) Behringer (Alsace/DK/NO) Bortvig/Fleischer (Lolland)

Hjælper gerne med Sverige: https://forum.slaegt.dk/index.php/topic,153986

Dan Hansen

Thank you Mikkel,

I should have said it was from the Gørløse church book (page 67) for the 1762.

Thank you for your translation.

Regards

Dan
Direct descendant of Christopher Madsen (circa 1754), Ane Marie Goltz (1748), Sebastian Møller, Poul Poulsen (1696), Tøger Hansen (1747), Michel Jensen (1630) and Eukaryote I (circa 1,800,000,000 BC)